Rough in

Livin4Real · Sep 21, 2007

jbfan74 said:
The ears have a purpose!
They pull the device tight against the drywall so the cover will sit flush and you are not using the cover to hold the switch flush.

And if you snap off the ears the switch will tighten up against the gang box. This is helpful for people who can't leave the power off very long on an extended remodel (like mine), allow you to drywall it without having to pull all the switches back out until inspection. I just used a scrap piece of drywall when setting the depth of the box. The switch is just as tight, if not tighter being flush with the gang box.

Hids2000 · Sep 28, 2007

hids2000 said:
The above got me thinking about over crowding. MY TJI joists have knock out that are 1-1/2" in size. To me there is more than enough room for those wires. Looking at the attached picture am I "over crowding" with the number of wires going though each knock out hole? If so I may as well rerun those wires before the inspector comes back and yells at me again.

Also can anyone recommend some basic books I can go buy and read up on?

View attachment 2933

So I got a hold of the local inspector on the phone and I asked him how many wires can in one hole and he said 3 wires. Later that day I was thinking this does not make sense at all. Can someone please explain it to me?
Why would the code say you can only have 3 wires per hole without limit the size of the hole? I mean if the hole is 3" in size that is more than enough room for 5 or 6 sets of 14-2 wires why does that cause a problem? I will follow the code and rerun the wire, but I would like to understand the reasoning behind it. It would make more sense if it was the number of wires can only be a % of the hole size.
Thanks

Sponsor · 2022-01-29T12:20:58-0800

Speedy Petey · Sep 28, 2007

Three wires would be wrong in ANY case. Four is the least in most cases.

Most inspectors (correctly) do not consider running cables through bored holes as "bundling". Some do.
Even if this guy considers this bundling you can have up to NINE CCC's (current carrying conductors) before derating is an issue. Four 2-wire cables is 8 CCC's.

If it were me I'd leave that the way it is.

JWelectric · Sep 28, 2007

Speedy Petey said:
Three wires would be wrong in ANY case. Four is the least in most cases.

Most inspectors (correctly) do not consider running cables through bored holes as "bundling". Some do.
Even if this guy considers this bundling you can have up to NINE CCC's (current carrying conductors) before derating is an issue. Four 2-wire cables is 8 CCC's.

If it were me I'd leave that the way it is.

Me to and I agree with your other part of the post.

If these cables were going through the top or bottom plate then I would look at 334.80

Where more than two NM cables containing two or more current-carrying conductors are bundled together and pass through wood framing that is to be fire- or draft-stopped using thermal insulation or sealing foam, the allowable ampacity of each conductor shall be adjusted in accordance with Table 310.15(B)(2)(a).

Hids2000 · Sep 28, 2007

Speedy Petey said:
Three wires would be wrong in ANY case. Four is the least in most cases.

Most inspectors (correctly) do not consider running cables through bored holes as "bundling". Some do.
Even if this guy considers this bundling you can have up to NINE CCC's (current carrying conductors) before derating is an issue. Four 2-wire cables is 8 CCC's.

If it were me I'd leave that the way it is.

Speedy Petey thanks for your quick answer. I will follow the 9 CCC per hole. My inspector is an old timer I just don't want any problems so running a new hole next to it and rerun the wire is not a problem. But can you explain the reason why only 9ccc per hole? I still do not understand the reasoning behind it, is it for fire protection? and why doesn't the size of the hole play a factor in how many ccc one can fit inside a hole?

JWelectric · Sep 28, 2007

310.15(B)(2) Adjustment Factors.
(a) More Than Three Current-Carrying Conductors in a Raceway or Cable. Where the number of current-carrying conductors in a raceway or cable exceeds three, or where single conductors or multiconductor cables are stacked or bundled longer than 600 mm (24 in.) without maintaining spacing and are not installed in raceways, the allowable ampacity of each conductor shall be reduced as shown in Table 310.15(B)(2)(a). Each current-carrying conductor of a paralleled set of conductors shall be counted as a current-carrying conductor.

EDITED TO ADD:

Yes bundling will cause heat

hj · Sep 28, 2007

wires

Why do the DIY'ers always cut the wires so short?

That is nothing. A DIY contractor in Battle Creek did his own wiring, and went into one side of the box then straight across and left the other side. After all the drywall and taping was done, he called an electrician to install the devices. The sparky took one look at the job and, after he finished laughing, said he would not even consider it because he would have to crimp splice EVERY wire in the house, and the contractor would not be able to afford him.

Kiril · Sep 29, 2007

Inspection question

Not to hijack the thread, but have a related question. See attached photo and comment on if it will fly with the inspectors as is.

JWelectric · Sep 29, 2007

Where is the wires?

Kiril · Sep 29, 2007

No wires yet, was just curious if boxes in such close proximity to each other would pass inspection without any further fire proofing like putty pads.

JWelectric · Sep 29, 2007

Kiril said:
No wires yet, was just curious if boxes in such close proximity to each other would pass inspection without any further fire proofing like putty pads.

Are the walls required to be fire rated?

Kiril · Sep 29, 2007

Not at that particular location. There is a fire rated assembly required for a duct chase further up the wall.

So am I to assume that by your answer it would only be an issue in a fire wall assembly?

JWelectric · Sep 29, 2007

Kiril said:
So am I to assume that by your answer it would only be an issue in a fire wall assembly?

This is correct.

Kiril · Sep 29, 2007

jwelectric said:
This is correct.

Thanks. That is what I thought, just wanted to be sure before getting called on it by the inspector.

Speedy Petey · Sep 29, 2007

Kiril said:
See attached photo and comment on if it will fly with the inspectors as is.

Is there a reason you have all that framing and blocking around those boxes? It's going to be a PIA to wire them.

Hids2000 · Oct 2, 2007

Guys I should have pics uploaded tonight I did what people advice me on and I wire nut and spliced everything in that switch box.

I was talking to a friend who build him own house in PA. (I am in NJ) just talking about how my house is coming along and he came over during the weekend and he said he does not think I can use 14-3 to power a garage door opener. That motors and pumps should be on a 12ga wire. I would like to get some advice on this before I rip the 14-3 down and rerun 12-3 wires.

My plan for the 14-3 is to power a track of lights in the ceiling of the garage total about 500watts. The red (by pass the track light switch) wire will provide power to an outlet in the ceiling for a future 1/2hp garage door opener. I picked 14-3 based on that the sear craftsman 1/2hp door open pulls 4.5amps or 540watt. so my total usage when everything is running is at 1040watt which is with in fine for 14-3. Am I safe here or I still need to rerun the wires to 12-3 just because.

Bob NH · Oct 2, 2007

14 is fine for up to 15 Amps. A garage door opener and lights are not continuous loads that would require derating.

Not clear why you are using 14-3 unless you are counting the ground wire. Standard wire would be 14-2 with ground; black, white, and green or bare.

Hids2000 · Oct 2, 2007

Bob NH said:
14 is fine for up to 15 Amps. A garage door opener and lights are not continuous loads that would require derating.

Not clear why you are using 14-3 unless you are counting the ground wire. Standard wire would be 14-2 with ground; black, white, and green or bare.

sorry Bob, i guess i was not clear enough, i am not counting the ground wire in the 14-3. I have a 15 amp breaker, than a 14-2 to the wall switch box. I than splice the 14-3 into the 14-2. So the track light switch will not affect the garage door opener's power. I spliced the red wire from the 14-3 into the black of the 14-2 with a pig tail. The location of the track light is right next to the garage door opener so i just ran one 14-3 instead of two 14-2s. I am just happy that I don't need to rerun wire just because the outlet will supply power to a so called motor. thanks!

JWelectric · Oct 2, 2007

hids2000 said:
sorry Bob, i guess i was not clear enough, i am not counting the ground wire in the 14-3. I have a 15 amp breaker, than a 14-2 to the wall switch box. I than splice the 14-3 into the 14-2. So the track light switch will not affect the garage door opener's power. I spliced the red wire from the 14-3 into the black of the 14-2 with a pig tail. The location of the track light is right next to the garage door opener so i just ran one 14-3 instead of two 14-2s. I am just happy that I don't need to rerun wire just because the outlet will supply power to a so called motor. thanks!

U N good shape

joe in queens · Oct 6, 2007

It took our resident plumbing expert, HJ, to catch the 300.14 violation. That was the first thing I saw, the wires are too short, especially that little one - doesn't look like 6" and if you make a mistake, it'll cetainly be less than 6".

Personally, my minimum is 12" particularly on multi-gange boxes where you might want to move things around. Often, I'll go 15-18" but then again, I always use large boxes. I also like to leave a small loop just before the box, in case the wiring is damaged. I realize cooper is expensive these days, but this is not the place to save.

I do like the idea of the label maker to identify the wires - I do that too.

Rough in

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