Standard Vent (line chimney) vs Direct Vent

[mjbardel]

I’m in the process of replacing my 13 year old A. O. Smith hot water heater and I’m trying to decide if I should use a standard vent (line chimney) or direct vent model (non-power). The cost (purchase and installation) to go with the standard vent model and line the chimney is about the same vs the direct vent model.

Is one type of installation better and/or preferred over the other? It seems to me that 10 or so years down the road, if I went with the standard vent model, I might have to replace the chimney liner also.

Thanks for any advice you can offer.

[patrick88]

you should look into a tankless water heater

[frenchie]

That was kinda cocky, considering more than half the regulars would disagree with you. We don't even know where she lives, how big here house is, what size her gas service is - any of which might make that comment look pretty silly.

MJ, I'm no plumbing pro, but some will be along to give their advice.

FWIW, I think directs are more efficient, but regulars last longer. Don't take my word for it, though.

[cwhyu2]

Why not power vent it.More efficent than direct vent going through
same wall.Also it is 120v check out Rheem

[patrick88]

I never said use a tankless just said

you should look into a tankless water heater

thats all

Everybody has there own opinion and if more than half the people on this site doesn't like tankless well that will not stop me from giving any advise, or making a suggestion.

If you ask ten plumbers the same question you will get ten different answers.

the absence of a tank saves energy as conventional water heaters have to reheat the water in the tank as it cools off, called standby loss.

Under current North American conditions, the most cost effective configuration from an operating viewpoint is usually to use a central tankless water heater

I may not be a Master but i am a pro. I don't try to know everything but the smart person takes the opinion of all there peers. Then makes a judgment based on all the facts.

[Gary Swart]

I'll let others that are more experienced with tankless deal with that subject! I have had very good results with my Rheem Power Vent and would recommend that as an excellent choice.

[GrumpyPlumber]

That was kinda cocky, considering more than half the regulars would disagree with you. We don't even know where she lives, how big here house is, what size her gas service is - any of which might make that comment look pretty silly.

MJ, I'm no plumbing pro, but some will be along to give their advice.

FWIW, I think directs are more efficient, but regulars last longer. Don't take my word for it, though.

There was nothing cocky in his statement, I install tankless frequently.
Direct vents are NOT more efficient than draft vent, I dispelled that myth last year when a customer asked me and I discovered that they're both around 60-65% efficient, direct vents showed little or no increase in efficiency.
Direct vents & powervents are gaining popularity because of safety concerns with co poisoning/deaths.
a tankless is at least 80%, when it's running.
I would consider it cocky if I were to hop into the remodeling forum on this site and start blasting my professional opinions on microlam. load bearing beams, or joist sizing for home building.
"MJ, I'm no plumbing pro, but some will be along to give their advice. "
FYI...he is, licensed et al.

[GrumpyPlumber]

I'll let others that are more experienced with tankless deal with that subject! I have had very good results with my Rheem Power Vent and would recommend that as an excellent choice.

Gary, if you like their powervent, you'd love their tankless.
I've installed quite a few, their actually powervented as well, very consistent and come standard with ten year warranty.
Pitfall, they're very expensive.
About 3 times the price of a draft vent equivalent, close to twice the price of a powervent/directvent.

[mjbardel]

I appreciate everyone’s response so far and here’s some background info – I live in New Jersey and there are four of us in the house (two adults and two small children). I will also be replacing my gas furnace which will be direct vented.

Tankless hot water heater – I love the idea of a tankless hot water heater and was all set to go that route. After some research several items discouraged me purchasing one. Cost!! In my area I received several quotes ranging from $3000 to $4500. The other item has to do with the tankless unit being able to perform during the winter months. I wasn’t convinced that during the winter when the temperature of the water coming into the house can be between 40 and 50 degrees that I would be able to get hot water for more then two faucets simultaneously. This conclusion came from taking with installers, and forums like this.

So, it seems to me that it would be cost effective to go with the direct vent model based on the fact that I might have to replace both the hot water heater and the chimney liner in ten or so years down the road. That’s what I was thinking and why I posed the question if one type of installation was preferred over the other.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Actually, if you're replacing the furnace (did you mean boiler?) -
Look into an indirect, IF it's a boiler.
Indirects run directly off a boiler, like a regular heat zone.
These are extremely efficient, rivalling a tankless in performance efficiency, but not as expensive.
Often homeowners confuse "furnace" with Boiler, a furnace is a unit that heats air that is forced through the house via vents.
A boiler uses baseboards that allow heated water to flow through them, if you have a forced hot air furnace, then an indirect is out.

[mjbardel]

It a gas forced hot air furnace.

[cwhyu2]

I would to clearify direct vents out the side of the house if there is no
flue availible.Still the same as adraft w/h.Power vent uses pvc and more cost
efficant.my opinion only.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Powervented heaters are intially several hundred dollars more for the stand alone heater.
Then there's added labor if it's replacing a draft vent, to relocate the exhaust, possibly the gas line as well.
Here's a brief comparison copied straight from AO Smiths website along with a link to the site.

AOSmiths direct vented = model# GPD ----- capacity 40 - efficiency .59 - BTU 40,000
AO Smiths standard vent = model# GCVH-40L capacity 40 - efficiency .59 - BTU 40,000
http://www.hotwater.com/lit/spec/r-gas.html
At 59% AO Smith isn't one of the better heaters, but I'm not up to bouncing around MFG sites to compare in depth.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Tankless hot water heater – I love the idea of a tankless hot water heater and was all set to go that route. After some research several items discouraged me purchasing one. Cost!! In my area I received several quotes ranging from $3000 to $4500. The other item has to do with the tankless unit being able to perform during the winter months. I wasn’t convinced that during the winter when the temperature of the water coming into the house can be between 40 and 50 degrees that I would be able to get hot water for more then two faucets simultaneously. This conclusion came from taking with installers, and forums like this.

You'll find some installers afraid of new things, they then tend to sway you from them to not lose work, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, new can be scary...especially if the product is new on the market.
There are numerous models, of the best I'd say Rheem/Paloma, Rinnai, Takagi.
There are several sizes, anything thats under 5 GPM (gallons per minute) may fall short in winter months for two fixtures running simultaneously, a standard shower uses 2.5 gpm.
Paloma/Rheem makes a 7.4 GPM That runs around $2500+ installed depending situation, Rinnai 9gpm thats likely the one you had priced at around 3K+.
There's also a $300. tax credit on tankless units over 82% efficient (most of them), as well, my local gas co's offer a $300 cash rebate.
Then there's the finale, the gas bill.
The bulk of your bill is hot water when averaged annually, depending on family size and winter temperatures/heating bills, most tankless will claim a minimum 30% savings on the hot water bill, I've seen better.
Lets say your bill for a family of 4 drops by say $10 a month.
At a rate of $120 a year it becomes $1200 in ten, the minimum life expectancy for most tankless (10 year warranties are standard, some less, some offer limited lifetime).
I offer tankless as an alternative, they're harder to install and I gain no more on them than any other heater as far as what I make vs my time.
Most folks opt to stay with the tank type when they're hit with the initial cost, but the feedback has been very positive on those who have, I live in the cold northeast.
There are other mentions of warranties being void with harder water, I haven't been able to find that in the warranties, but I could be wrong.

[master plumber mark]

Grumpy......please explain to me.....

and I dont mean to sound cocky or uppitty


I am wondering why someone would not spend the money
for good standard 10 year water heater for about $750 installed

What justifies doing a the tankless at $2500....$3500???

How do you talk the people into doing it???
Or are they just fallling at your feet begging you to install them
a $3000 tankless heater??? Is the public just totally brainwashed???

I can not see even doing a Power Vent for about $1500--1800

if the chimmney is ok, and it vents perfectly,

why in the world would someone want to change over to a power vent or a tankless.....??????

their are no moving parts with the old reliable tank type,
no power cords, no suction valves....no vaccuum tubes
no loud fans, no heat exchangers or expensive circuit boards
or stupid thermostats that can short out and cost you an arm and a leg......




all that is on the tank type heater is

just a puney, simple little thermocoupling and piolit light.
that never bothered no-body...........


quietly minding its own damn business ,
doing its job for sometimes up to 30 years.....



why does everyone want to re-invent the wheel
at three times the price???