Solving the puzzle: venting + re-plumbing

Hi all,

Look what I found when dig through a slab in my basement.
For some reason, my common sense (quite week in plumbing) says that there is something wrong here:

1. It uses same main sewage lines and/or wet vent from kitchen upstairs (a sink + dishwasher are connected to that line)

2. pipes' layout alone just makes me nervous... 1 tee is put even against the flow - the one that connects kitchen pipe with shower

3. Tee is rusted out, and I think, all this thing was leaking a bit. That piece of duck tape I put is to stop sewage gas coming into the building.

Because I opened the slab, I would like to move shower and toilet openings by a foot from where they are right now - room is very small, and extra space would make it a bit more useful.

I have no faith in asking some contractor to take care about this mess - I'm pretty sure some contractor at the beginning created this one, as well bigger companies would charge the amount I would not be willing to pay, therefore I'm doing this all by myself. Do I know how? Hell, no! That's why I'm hoping that someone way more knowledgeable from this forum is going to help me.

So 1st question before even going further - from what you see - is that wet went I have coming from a kitchen enough, or do I need additional venting?

contractor

I have no faith in asking some contractor to take care about this mess - I'm pretty sure some contractor at the beginning created this one, as well bigger companies would charge the amount I would not be willing to pay, therefore I'm doing this all by myself. Do I know how? Hell, no! That's why I'm hoping that someone way more knowledgeable from this forum is going to help me.

That mess was not created by any knowledgable contractor, and might have been a DIY project, just like the one you intend to do. As for the charges, NOBODY WANTS to pay what the job costs, and your statement that you would not be willing to pay one, apparently whatever he would charge, implies that I would not want you for a customer. They didn't know what they were doing, and neither do you, and we could tell you exactly how to do it, and you could still do it wrong.

hj said:

They didn't know what they were doing, and neither do you,

Click to expand...

and that would be the exact reason why I'm asking for some help. Nobody was born knowing all that.

hj said:

we could tell you exactly how to do it, and you could still do it wrong.

Click to expand...

...or right, if I will follow your suggestions?
If I would be inclined to ignore suggestions, I wouldn't ask. On the other hand - I already ignored suggestions from some Home Depot "pro" who was saying it's all good (I showed him pictures)

so, lets stick to the subject, shall we? Real help (vs schooling) is much appreciated.

Besides, this is "Terry Love's Plumbing & Remodel DIY advice forum"

P.S. If you took it personally - I wasn't saying that there are no reasonable contractors - to find one is a form of art, though...

I would cut the4"c/i main drain and repipe it all.Local codes may help.

cwhyu2 said:

I would cut the4"c/i main drain and repipe it all.Local codes may help.

Click to expand...

Yup - that's the plan. I'm planning to throw all this away, as soon as I have a good plan, and know what I'm doing. Right now I'm working on different ideas how to layout pipes. Challenge (to me) is that it looks very busy.

I was even thinking about double-wye.. I even checked some existing plumbing in my house, and saw double wye used in almost horizontal position, but it just doesn't sound right (until someone knowledgeable confirms it's ok), so I'm trying to stay away from that approach.

I'll stick a picture later with ideas I'm running through.

P.S. in general, my house probably didn't have an owner who planned to stay for awhile, so it's messy in any area you pick - electrical, plumbing, chimney, etc... you name it, my house has it...

As promised, here is a picture of what I'm thinking *right now*.
How many WTFs can you count? As you can see, there is not much changed to improve venting there - I'm still scratching my head over this issue.

So, what do you think?

tamosius said:

... there is not much changed to improve venting there - I'm still scratching my head over this issue.

So, what do you think?

Click to expand...

Impressive artwork!

The trap under the shower would concern me, but it would have some protection if at least one of the lines from upstairs is vented.

Here PVC and no hub clamps is a big no-no underground. Everything under a slab must be cast iron. Check your local codes on that.

We'll see what the pros say as far as the actual piping but it seems to me you're going to need to ad some vents.

YES you have the ideal, but i would put a wye in both the shower drain,
& toilet drain, roll 2" vent off toilet line back up though wall behind toilet,
make sure wye's on both lines come off above the horzital as much as possable, on the shower drain you only need 1 1/2" vent pipe,
you have to get these vent lines up stairs to tie in above the flood level of your upstairs fixtures,

the reason you need these extra vents is because wet venting though k/s drain is not good, for example when dishwaser is draining their is "NO" vent for down stairs fixtures. except for lav. sink this is ok.
also if you get clogged k/s drain pipe,

the reason you need those vents is to keep the traps from back siphoning,
out again when the dishwaser is draining, or you dump a full sink of water down drain, then you start getting sewer gas coming up shower drain or toilet
of course by then the floor is all redone and too late to make changes,

just the way it should be according to codes;

JERRYMAC MASTERPLUMBER & MASTER DRAINMAN

P. S. their you go lets see how good you are at following directions,!!!
also post pictures of the way i said plus the upstairs vents and i can tell you how to do tie in's,,

Tam -

For what it's worth, HJ is usually the nicest guy here.

Bashing on contractors, when asking a bunch of contractors for help, is pretty bad form... don't you think?

frenchie said:

Tam -

For what it's worth, HJ is usually the nicest guy here.

Bashing on contractors, when asking a bunch of contractors for help, is pretty bad form... don't you think?

Click to expand...

HJ has a valid point.
If the threads originator "has no faith in contractors" why is he here asking contractors for free advice?
It's the wording.
Just say "I'm not able to afford a contractor", "I'm doing a remodel and underbid, so I can't afford to sub."...etc.

GrumpyPlumber said:

HJ has a valid point.
If the threads originator "has no faith in contractors" why is he here asking contractors for free advice?
It's the wording.
Just say "I'm not able to afford a contractor", "I'm doing a remodel and underbid, so I can't afford to sub."...etc.

Click to expand...

Agree.. how about slightly modified version: I don't trust in my ability to find a contractor whom I could trust, in Vancouver, CA area.
Especially after Vancouver has won bidding for 2010 Olympic games, and now building industry is booming, and best ones are so busy it's simply too hard to to get to them, or price is in "ouch!" range.

As well I'm not rich enough to do the same job twice, so I'm not looking for one who would came looking for easiest possible way to take money.

Last, but not least important - I consider myself a DIY'er.. and no, I don't use duct tape

I don't believe here, in this forum, there are people who don't care how to do things (DIYers), or how things are going to be done (Contractors). Those who don't care, they don't try to learn and research, neither they could help anyone, because on Internet your knowledge is exposed to too many who knows the subject.

So, sorry for steering, I could only wish I could have been more careful with my wording. Peace?

P.S. more pictures/drawings to come.

Ideal: a new vent. Use it at the shower, to vent that line, and you place this vented line between your Wye connections carrying toilet waste to isolate them (and your kitchen drain line).

To do:
1.) Figure out where you will get a new vent.
2.) Learn about "bathroom groups". I saw FloridaOrange discuss this in a few threads earlier this year, in case you want to search using someone's username as one more key word.


David
p,s,

tamosius said:

....I don't believe ... there are people who don't care .... Those who don't care, they don't try to learn and research, neither they could help anyone....

Click to expand...

whatever!

geniescience said:

Ideal: a new vent. Use it at the shower, to vent that line, and you place this vented line between your Wye connections carrying toilet waste to isolate them (and your kitchen drain line).

To do:
1.) Figure out where you will get a new vent.
2.) Learn about "bathroom groups". I saw FloridaOrange discuss this in a few threads earlier this year, in case you want to search using someone's username as one more key word.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info/suggestions.
Quick 2 questions even before I do research on "bathroom groups":
a) is it ok if I connect toilet + shower to main vent (it would be wet vent, 3" size, only 1 sink is connected above)
b) is it ok if I connect toilet + shower to dry vent that is used by washer as well, but the size is only 1.5" (I got impression that for toilet 2" vent is required)

I understand that new vent would work best, except that it's basement, and I'm looking for ways to do venting without opening walls upstairs.

thanks in advance.

tamosius said:

....main vent (it would be wet vent, 3" size, only 1 sink is connected above) .... connect toilet + shower to dry vent that is used by washer ....

Click to expand...

without opening walls, there is a way! Tell us more about this washer vent that we have not seen yet!

tamosius, it is good for you to get a handle on the terms and use them right so that everyone you deal with here and elsewhere figure you are probably accurate. Your question a.) talks about a main vent and a wet vent. Hmm, I think neither term is used right here. Then, you say you have a 3" pipe for a single sink! (No you don't).

Another thing to learn about : revent, reventing, re-venting, i.e. looping back without cutting into your upstairs walls.

A 1.5" vent is big enough for your toilet. In Vancouver BC.

David

geniescience said:

without opening walls, there is a way! Tell us more about this washer vent that we have not seen yet!
...
Another thing to learn about : revent, reventing, re-venting, i.e. looping back without cutting into your upstairs walls.

A 1.5" vent is big enough for your toilet. In Vancouver BC.

David

Click to expand...

Thanks David for corrections, and guiding me to right direction.

I called that main stack vent "a wet vent" because there is something connected to it - a sink in upstairs bathroom (shrug). I'll check terms in plumbing book, as soon as I get back home.

I'll drop a picture tomorrow (aka 1 picture worth 1000 words )

As well I'll show my best guesses on what options I have... and then I'll take more beating that I deserve

Sorry for such big delay. Work that buys bread, and my kids eat most of my time.

Here is layout plan, check Layout.jpg
It shows fixtures upstairs and downstairs, so they are overlaying, but colors are different, so I hope it is understandable.
As well, the way levels are split is shown in the SplitLevel.jpg pic.

geniescience: isn't it true that re-venting is possible only to true vent, and you can not re-vent to a wet vent?
From "Plumbing 1-2-3" book: "The re-vent pipe typically runs up from the drain line and over to a true vent pipe."

In the basement I only have a drain that comes from the kitchen, that I thought I could use as a wet vent though some people already disagreed with that.
On the other hand, the only thing that is connected to that 2" drain/wet vent is 1.5" drain from kitchen sink and dishwasher, so it shouldn't fill that 2" drain, right? 2" circle's area is 1.7 times bigger than 1.5" circle’s area.
This now makes me thinking whether separate vent is needed. Here is another excerption from the same book: "Wet venting is a self-contradictory term, since a vent really should be dry. This method uses a portion of another fixture's drain line to double as a vent. Wet venting is sometimes allowed if the pipe is large enough so that it will virtually never be filled with water."

As well, while current vertical drain/wet vent is 2 inches, I could make part of vertical and whole horizontal pipe 3 inches diameter, so that when water slows down, because it reaches horizontal pipe, it would start running over a bigger pipe, and wouldn't fill for sure? Maybe?
I'm really looking forward for replies to this approach - bad/good, what do you think? Check WetVent-NoRevent.jpg.

GrumpyPlumber that (please, correct me if I misunderstood) that where he is you can not use drain as a wet vent coming from kitchen sink and/or laundry sink/washer. I still wonder what city of Port Moody, BC, Canada building code says.

2nd by convenience is 1.5" true vent, that has a washer, and a sink connected in a laundry room. It's a bit hassle to reach that one because basement is in lower level compared to laundry room, but I think it's doable.

While it would be best (I *guess*) to connect to main vent stack (the one that is 3"), it has the same hassle as to connect to 1.5 vent, and in addition connecting itself is a bit challenging for me, because I don't have lot of space to work around it.
There is only tiny bit that I could cut into it, and attach wye using sleeves/rubber adapters, and all this would have to be done in between joists (see the MainVentStack.jpg)

In Mass. USA the only fixtures you can wet vent are on the upper floors. this is usually the lav sink to the bathtub.
You can't connect any fixtures to the kitchen sink drain, or laundry tray. This is because the kitchen sink is known to fill with food particles and the laundry with lint.

Trying to connect to a drain that seems to be over sized or might have enough air flow will only cause you problems in the future. FYI if you try to tie in your basement lav sink to your kitchen sink from upstairs and then your dishwasher drains your basement lav sink will gurgle and let out sewer gases.

The books they sell at home centers give vague clues as to what is right. They are telling you what is true when it comes to why things are sized, but they are not telling you the exceptions to the rules like what i said above. Plus what code is the book righten for? I tried to train a guy and he goes and starts to tell me i don't know what a union is compared to a coupling. the book said the coupling was a union. I let him order parts at the next supply house trip.