Getting a new water meter...can I have them....

Getting a new water meter on Tues. and was wondering if I can have the tech check the supply line from the street to see if there is any built up deposits that could be restricting flow/pressure? The house is about 45 yrs old and I have been experiencing a low pressure situation for a while. The meter is 20 yrs old and they are replacing it with a new digital one.

The neighbors don't seem to have the same problem so I'm thinking that is in my main supply line or the meter. Thanks! Oh, and is there anything else that I should have them do or questions that I should ask while they're here? What about installing a pressure valve so I can regulate it myself? If I do put in a pressure regulator, will I need to have an expansion tank as well?

The public utility should be installing a new water meter, but everything on your house side of the meter is your responsibility, such as the main supply line, main shut-off valve, pressure reducing valve if necessary, etc.
If you have an old galvanized supply line, which you probably do if it's 45 years old, it is most likely about clogged by now and needs replacing. That should resolve your low water pressure problem.
Good luck!
Mike

Not only is the pipe interior probably pencil sized, it is also very likely rusted so badly that it will soon begin to leak. As pointed out, the city will not do anything to your supply line, that's your responsibility. As to the issue of a PRV, that depends on what pressure the city delivers to your home. You can measure that quite easily with an inexpensive gauge available at any hardware store. The size and condition of the pipe will not affect the pressure. If the pipe is corroded nearly shut, you will suffer from a lack of flow, but the static pressure will still be whatever the city delivers. If the psi in the city main is over 70 psi, then you should put a PRV in your supply line near where the line enters the house. After that, you will need an expansion tank. There are numerous discussion on this forum about expansion tanks, but bottom line is if you have a PRV or if the new meter has a check valve to prevent expanded water from the water heater from being absorbed into the city main, you need an expansion tank as either of these will create a "closed system".

The meter is mounted inside the basement on a line that comes through the foundation. There are no exposed pipes outside at all. My thought was that the line from the foundation wall to the supply line may be the problem. Are you saying that this is my responsibility or theirs? I really don't want to have to replace that as it would require tearing out a decorative brick wall and a side walk and a bunch of plantings.

Since your meter is inside you house, it would be my guess that the city is responsible for the line from their main line into the house, up to the meter. I don't know how common it is to have that arrangement, most meters are at the curb although I have read of some like yours. Lines from the street can be tunneled with little damage to landscaping, but you need to discuss this with the city. As I said in my earlier reply, it is likely that your supply line is galvanized and after 45 years is overdue for replacement whether you do it or your city. You didn't say why you are getting a new meter, but I believe it would be folly to put a new meter on an old, corroded, and rusty pipe.

Most citys responsibility is from the curb stop to the main, even when the meter is inside the home.

If your city is different you are lucky.

This is an example of why the 'Location' should be given, by those who register here, if they want answers that apply to them.

I never see any city responsibility for supply lines that aren't on city property. The tap and curb stop near the sidewalk will be on city property, and they deal with that. The actual supply line leading to your house traverses homeowner property, and will therefore be the homeowner's responsibility. That supply line was installed by someone other than the water department.

Is this a copper line? Generally, not a problem. Reduced flow might come from a kink in the tubing (installer error) ~ Is the supply line galvanized steel? A steel pipe could easily accumulate enough rust to choke the line.

meter

My experience has been that everything up to the meter is the city's responsibility. The reasoning being, that in the event of a leak, the water would not be registering, so the homeowner would have little incentive to repair the pipe until it actually broke.

No city I know of will undertake the replacement of an old supply line on homeowner property, even if the meter is in a basement, and a supply line leak could be wasting unpaid-for city water. But feel free to supply some actual citations of such a generous policy. Where supply lines are decades old, and several feet deep, and a hundred feet long, or more, it would seem to be fiscally irresponsible to repair homeowner plumbing. And it is the homeowner's plumbing.

Now, the water departments I know and love, would handle a water-wasting supply line leak with a letter informing the homeowner of their obligation to remedy the problem, and give them a deadline for making the repair. Fail to meet the deadline? The curb stop gets closed.

Then things get worse.

Sorry abo9ut not posting a location. I'm in St. Louis County, MO, more specifically a city called Warson Woods. I don't know if the supply line is copper or galvinized but will check when I get home tonight.

To answer the question about why I'm getting a new meter, I called the water company a few weeks ago to complain about low pressure, and their tech came out and said that the pressure was within their guidleins but that we should have gotten a new meter years ago. They have been changing all of them out to digital units so that they make sure they are getting to bill everyone as much as possible. The old one is about 20 years old. I've heard of the older style meters causing a low flow/pressure situation and I'm hoping that getting a new meter will fix mine. We'll see.

Old meters don't cause pressure losses at low flows. A modern 5/8 meter might have superior flow capabilities, in comparison to the older ones, but until you actually undertake to do measurements with a pressure gauge, and at different flows, you won't have a complete picture.

Now, for a bit of good news - if you did have a rusted-up galvanized supply pipe, there have been advances in technology that would make it possible to install a copper replacement line without having to dig up your yard. Still not cheap, but not as disruptive as trenching.

As I commented in my earlier reply, don't confuse pressure with flow. To make the point, here's an extreme example: think of a tube used to supply an ice maker. This is about 1/4" diameter. If it is connected to a water supply line that has say 90 psi, it would squirt water quite a distance because it has considerable pressure behind it. However, if you wanted to fill a tub with this tube, it would take a long time because there would be such a small volume from the small pipe. The opposite extreme is to have a large pipe, say 2" diameter connected to a supply that has only 30 psi. The water would not squirt very far from the end of the pipe because there is such a small amount of pressure, but the volume or flow would fill the tub quite quickly. Galvanize pipe corrodes and gradually constricts the inside so that you may only have the equivalent of that 1/4" pipe. At the same time, rust is eating away at the walls of the pipe from both inside and out, and eventually the pipe leaks. There seems to be a couple of opinions on who's responsibility the replacement of your supply line, but if it is galvanized, it has to be on it's last legs and should be replace with either copper or PVC.

In most areas here you own everything but the main and the meter. That includes the plumbing in your house, the pipe going to your house, and the tap/valve in the main.

Marlin336 said:

In most areas here you own everything but the main and the meter. That includes the plumbing in your house, the pipe going to your house, and the tap/valve in the main.

Click to expand...

Please update your profile so we know where "here" is located.

Any water utility may have different policies than any other, even when the utilities are in nearby geographical areas.

This was a few decades ago in Seattle but when an apartment building was erected across the street from my parent's house the water utility dug the hole to the main, tapped it, ran the pipe across the street, set the meter and meter box and then filled the hole. The utility ran the (1-1/2 inch galvanized) pipe under the street by blasting water through the pipe and pumping it out of the hole. The whole job barely took four hours and that included digging the hole, trouble with the hot tap apparatus, running the pipe, setting the meter and backfilling. The apartment contractor took it from there.

When I replaced the incoming pipe to my parents house I discovered that the meter had a three-quarter inch copper line going under the sidewalk that transitioned to half-inch galvanized at the property line. The meter was in the planting strip between the street and the sidewalk. The copper had a flare nut fitting where it changed to the galvanized.

That house had been built in 1905, added on to and remodeled in the early 1930's and it was in the late 1960's or early 1970's when I changed the galvanized pipe. I suspect that galvanized pipe had been there since at least the 1930's and maybe even before that. It didn't leak but the internal diameter was no better than that of a new one-quarter inch pipe.

The hassle with steel (iron) is that when it rusts, the iron oxide is larger than the elemental iron which means that it exposes more of the elemental iron so it can rust. In comparison, aluminum oxide (aluminum rust so to speak) is basically the same size as the elemental aluminum, so it actually seals the surface. This is good because aluminum rusts much faster than iron. There is disolved oxygen in water...it will continually rust the inside of an iron pipe. Replace it with something more stable.

Well, I got the new meter this morning and there was little to no change in the pressure or flow throughout the house or sprinkler system. The guy that installed it was clueless and said that I needed to call the "trouble shooters". These are the guys that were here two weeks ago and said that nothing was wrong. The installer had no way of checking the pressure or do a flow test. He just installs meters.

Now what?????????? Oh, and the supply line is a 5/8" copper line.

Okay, so a few days later, we now know it's probably about insufficient lawn sprinkler performance. Is this system recently installed? Sorry to say, but this should likely be a matter for the sprinkler installer to correct, by modifying his work.

Higher pressure, you cannot get, unless you install a pressure-boosting pump and water-storage pressure tank. Higher flows might be had by installing a new supply line to the home, but there goes that sidewalk and plantings. How long is this supply line? The longer it is, the more you have to gain by replacing it with a larger one.

Wet_Boots said:

Okay, so a few days later, we now know it's probably about insufficient lawn sprinkler performance. Is this system recently installed? Sorry to say, but this should likely be a matter for the sprinkler installer to correct, by modifying his work.

Higher pressure, you cannot get, unless you install a pressure-boosting pump and water-storage pressure tank. Higher flows might be had by installing a new supply line to the home, but there goes that sidewalk and plantings. How long is this supply line? The longer it is, the more you have to gain by replacing it with a larger one.

Click to expand...

What did I miss that the OP said it was with sprinklers?

To the OP, here a 5/8" meter is the norm, however the piping to/from the meter is 3/4". Is your house supplied with 5/8" on both sides of the meter?

Lord Kelvin; Lecture to the institution of Civil Engineers, May 3, 1883

You need to measure two things; the flow and the pressure.

Put a pressure gauge somewhere on a line near the entrance to the house. A good place is often an outside faucet where you can connect a gauge fitted to a hose connection.

Measure the pressure when there is no flow; all water off.

Turn on the water at the device that is causing the low pressure.

Read the pressure on the gauge again.

Using a watch with a sweep second hand, observe the water meter and determine how much water is flowing in one (1) minute. It may be calibrated in gallons or in cubic feet. One cubic foot = 7.48 gallons.

NOTE: Meters usually have a pointer where one revolution of the pointer is one cubic foot or ten gallons. Digital ones may have a different readout. If the meter reads only full units (such as 10 gallons or 1 cubic foot) you may have to measure the seconds for the full quantity of water between the indications. A longer interval will give a more accurate or reliable answer.

Give us the answers and someone can probably suggest what the problems might be. It may be that there isn't a problem and you may simply be demanding more water than a residential system is designed to deliver.

Throwing a sprinkler system into the mix does indeed change things. A 5/8" meter is too small to run much of a sprinkler system. Your supply line is also too small. I don't know how you figure it's a 5/8" line, to my knowledge there is no such size in copper pipe, but even a 3/4" line would be too small. Follow Bob NH's advice and measure pressure and flow, and I think you'll find when the sprinklers are turned on, your pressure will drop dramatically. If this was mine, I'd run a 1" copper or PVC line from the street to a 1" meter. You don't have to dig up the whole yard to put in a new line. A new line can be tunneled in. Next question. Do you have a backflow preventer in this system? You have a cross connection which means contaminated water from your sprinklers can get back into both your household water and the city's main if you don't have one. Your city should require one as well as an annual inspection by a certified inspector.