2-wire vs 3-wire pumps

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Gary Slusser

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As the number of service drops along a distribution line increases, the higher the voltage on the distribution line must be, single or 3 phase, and that requires a larger size (gauge) of distribution line, no? Same for the distance of the distribution line, the farther you run it from the distribution yard/generator, the larger the gauge must be.

Yes that's what I said, all distribution lines and service drop lines to the buildings' meter base and from the meter base into the panel was aluminum; no copper. It's been that way since at least the late '50s if not since WWII.

The only copper was the ground line coiled on the base/bottom of the pole to the neutral on the pole. And the meter ground. We only went to the meter, we didn't go past the meter.
 
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Abikerboy

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Gary Slusser said:
Yes that's what I said, all distribution lines and service drop lines to the buildings' meter base and from the meter base into the panel was aluminum; no copper. It's been that way since at least the late '50s if not since WWII.

Yea, I seen where you had said that, but I had posted my reply before I noticed it. Lol! Sorry about that. Im not too smart sometimes!
 

Alternety

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Adding loads on a feeder will cause an increase of current and, if this current exceeds the working load capability of the existing wire, require a larger gage wire on the distribution line if nothing else changes. Increasing the voltage is an alternative to increasing wire gage. Power = voltage X current (ignoring the case of power factor less than 1). A wire will provide twice the power by doubling either the voltage or the current. Power dissapation in the wire is non-linear (P= current squared X the resistance of the wire).

The power distribution system chooses voltage to minimize the gage of the wire. That is why long haul transmission lines keep trying for higher and higher voltages. They can continue to use the smaller gage and just increase voltage.

The ability to use transformers for easily altering the voltage/current relationship is one of the reasons we have AC power systems instead of DC.
 
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Rancher

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alternety said:
Power = voltage X current (ignoring the case of power factor less than 1). A wire will provide twice the power by doubling either the voltage or the current. Power dissapation in the wire is non-linear (P= current squared X the resistance of the wire).
This is kinda confusing so let me add some words to make this a correct statment. Wire does not provide power, perhaps power capacity? If you double the voltage the current will be half, for the same load, thereby requiring a smaller gauge of wire. You can't double the current without changing the load, or reducing the voltage to half.

Rancher
 

Alternety

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Rancher - sorry about the sloppy terminology. You are of course correct about wires and power. I also beat around the bushes a bit to much sometimes.

The point I was trying to make was that if attached loads need to exceed the existing distribution capacity, there are two basic choices. Increase distribution voltage or increase the gage of the distribution system wire. If you increase the voltage this does not imply or require that wire guage must be increased. Insulation perhaps. Transformers yes or no. If the distribution was designed for expansion it may just be a tap or configuration change.

That was all I was trying to point out.
 

Raucina

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Tell us how it was a mistake?

This "reversal" in my experience is a 60 cycle vibration that draws so many amps that it cannot last long and is of such small distance that it does not do much. A kick from a horse has more import than a tickle from a vibrator.

That said, after I know I have a clean well, I would use a 2 wire.
 

Abikerboy

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Raucina said:
Tell us how it was a mistake?

This "reversal" in my experience is a 60 cycle vibration that draws so many amps that it cannot last long and is of such small distance that it does not do much. A kick from a horse has more import than a tickle from a vibrator.

That said, after I know I have a clean well, I would use a 2 wire.

I actually asked about this yesterday...the biac switch is actually a "bi-metallic a.c. switch"...hence the name "biac"! The switch heats up and opens within way way less than one second of start up because of the current on the start winding, and it can take the switch as long as 5 seconds to reset and close! With the start windings of a jammed motor, the amperage, and therefore the heating of this biac switch are way off base, so therefore if a motor jams, it is not an "ac vibration", BUT it is an overheated switch that has remained open, and has caused the motor to start turning in the direction of least resistance...sometimes meaning in reverse, and it can take up to the 5 second interval for the biac switch to cool enough to reset, and to kick the motor in the proper direction and start it under normal circumstances. Franklin has done great research of this in the past, and even the new ITT motors have coppied franklin, and with full patent rights. Just what I was told, and having taken classes in electrical, and with knowing how both a stator, and a rotor of an induction motor is designed, yes, it makes sense!
 

MichaelSK

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...More of a question than a reply: If one must run a pump with a generator (hurricane power outage), is it "easier" to start a 3-wire pump vs. a 2-wire pump. In addition, if one is using a CSV does the initial high head pressure make the generator start more problematic? Has anyone added a hardstart capacitor to a pump controller when faced with difficult starting (after a storm when on "smallish" generator)?
 

VAWellDriller

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My personal experience is its easier to start 3 wire with a little undersized generator. My real world example is I keep a relatively compact generac 4000/6600 surge gen on pump truck and it will easily start a 2HP but very much struggles with a 1.5HP 2 wire. For what its worth, on small pumps when I can, I install all 2 wire pumps unless the customer asks for 3 wire. High head pressure (like from a CSV) on startup only lightens the load on the motor and generator.....starting against a closed valve would put the LEAST load on a motor.
 

MI Well Drilling

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I had to put on rubber boots just to read all of the replies. I don't know all the electric mumbo-jumbo but I do know that a 3 wire pump is a lot quieter than a 2 wire. In my experience in the past 20 years I've ran into a old timers installation that had a control box mounted inside with a secondary capacitor from a Chrysler wired in and it has been working for 30 years. I was just there to replace the bladder tank.
 

MichaelSK

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My personal experience is its easier to start 3 wire with a little undersized generator. My real world example is I keep a relatively compact generac 4000/6600 surge gen on pump truck and it will easily start a 2HP but very much struggles with a 1.5HP 2 wire. For what its worth, on small pumps when I can, I install all 2 wire pumps unless the customer asks for 3 wire. High head pressure (like from a CSV) on startup only lightens the load on the motor and generator.....starting against a closed valve would put the LEAST load on a motor.
Thanks for the reply: that's exactly what I wanted to hear (the CSV load: has to do with the weight of the water being moved); very good to hear about your generator starting the 3-wire.
Have you an opinion about pump quality, pump-end design with the CSV (e.g. fixed stack vs. floating stack, number of impellers/stages, etc.) Please opine about: AY McDonald, Grundfos, Gould. Appreciate your feedback.
 

Valveman

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Thanks for the reply: that's exactly what I wanted to hear (the CSV load: has to do with the weight of the water being moved); very good to hear about your generator starting the 3-wire.
Have you an opinion about pump quality, pump-end design with the CSV (e.g. fixed stack vs. floating stack, number of impellers/stages, etc.) Please opine about: AY McDonald, Grundfos, Gould. Appreciate your feedback.

Grundfos will be the best to work with a CSV. Use a 3 wire motor with a CSCR control box for the very best efficiency you can get at low flow.
 
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