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Thread: Disconnect for water heater??

  1. #16
    Licensed Electrical Contractor Speedy Petey's Avatar
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    As I scroll down I see Chris beat me to the reply.
    I see old 10/2 all the times used for dryers. This was NEVER code legal NOR was it ever safe!!!!
    Folks who used 10/2 for dryers simply did not know, or care to know, the code.

  2. #17
    DIY Member hammerslammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey
    As I scroll down I see Chris beat me to the reply.
    I see old 10/2 all the times used for dryers. This was NEVER code legal NOR was it ever safe!!!!
    Folks who used 10/2 for dryers simply did not know, or care to know, the code.
    Wow what a shock for me. I guess i've seen it to and assumed that it was allowed in the past. I have some 10-2 to tear out on my oun house but fortunately it was for a future 2nd laundry room and was never used. Thanks,

  3. #18
    Moderator & Master Plumber hj's Avatar
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    Default 10/2

    10/2 w grd was the standard for decades before the 4 terminal plugs were adopted. The difference between a dryer and a water heater is that the dryer has a 120 volt control and motor circuit that needs the neutral, whether it is a 10/2 or 10/3 w ground. And they were always "safe" because the neutral and shell were bonded together.

  4. #19
    Licensed Electrical Contractor Speedy Petey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hj
    10/2 w grd was the standard for decades before the 4 terminal plugs were adopted.
    ABSOLUTELY NOT!
    It was NEVER the "standard". At least by anyone who knew what they were doing.
    As has been said now several times, 10/2 has NO neutral in a 120/240v application. This means the bare ground carried current. This was never allowed and was never safe.
    The ONLY exception was when SEU cable was used. This is the service cable that has two conductors with the grounded (NOT grounding) conductor wrapped around them. This exception is now long gone as well.



    Quote Originally Posted by hj
    ......whether it is a 10/2 or 10/3 w ground. And they were always "safe" because the neutral and shell were bonded together.
    Which is the reason for needing an insulated neutral as opposed to a bare ground. Any kind of 10/3 was safe in the past. 10/2 was NOT.

  5. #20
    Moderator & Master Plumber hj's Avatar
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    Default 10/2

    In that case there were a "jillion" electricians who did not know what they were doing, including the one that wired my new house 6 years ago, to match my 3 prong male plug. As I said, it was standard for decades. You never saw a 4 prong plug for a dryer until the last decade at the earliest. Maybe you are too new in the business to go back that far.

  6. #21
    Licensed Electrical Contractor Speedy Petey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hj
    In that case there were a "jillion" electricians who did not know what they were doing, including the one that wired my new house 6 years ago, to match my 3 prong male plug.
    Yes. That is exactly right.
    If the electrician who wired your house wired the dryer circuit to match the plug then I'd love to see what else he did there. You match the plug to the receptacle, NOT the other way around. And the receptacle MUST be wired to code.
    If he installed a 3-prong dryer circuit and receptacle six years ago he obviously did NOT know what he was doing. That or he simply didn't care. The neutral/ground bond exception was dropped in 1996. Four prong receptacles with a separate ground and neutral have been mandatory since then.
    If he EVER wired a dryer with 10/2, ESPECIALLY as soon as six years ago, I'd love to know his name so I can report him to the licensing bureau.


    Quote Originally Posted by hj
    As I said, it was standard for decades.
    You are misunderstanding what I am saying. I am NOT saying 3-prong dryer receptacles were not legal or safe. That WAS the standard for MANY years. I see them all the time. Only I mostly see them wired with 10/3 without ground or SEU cable. The old, yet CORRECT way.



    Quote Originally Posted by hj
    You never saw a 4 prong plug for a dryer until the last decade at the earliest.
    Not true. 4-prong receptacles have always been code for dryers and ranges in mobile homes.




    Quote Originally Posted by hj
    Maybe you are too new in the business to go back that far.
    Nice try.
    Last edited by Speedy Petey; 09-08-2007 at 07:25 PM.

  7. #22
    Electrician Chris75's Avatar
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    I don't think people know the difference between 10-2 and 10-3, there is some obvious confusion about the subject... hence the 3-wire and 4-wire dryer/receptacle comments being made...

    The picture below is 10-2 NM, notice that if this was used for a dryer, you would be forced to use the bare copper wire for the neutral, this is the code violation, the neutral conductor MUST be insulated... Hence the use for 10-3 which would contain a blk,red,white, and bare copper conductor...




    Here are some examples of the 1996 code change dealing with 3-wire and 4-wire receptacles...

    Three Wire Hook-up, Notice the Grounded (neutral) is also bonded to the frame of the dryer, so the neutral was also the ground.


    Four Wire Hook-up, Notice the Grounded (neutral) and Grounding (ground) conductors are isolated...
    Last edited by Chris75; 09-08-2007 at 08:18 PM.

  8. #23
    Electrician frenchelectrican's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris75
    I don't think people know the difference between 10-2 and 10-3, there is some obvious confusion about the subject... hence the 3-wire and 4-wire dryer/receptacle comments being made...

    The picture below is 10-2 NM, notice that if this was used for a dryer, you would be forced to use the bare copper wire for the neutral, this is the code violation, the neutral conductor MUST be insulated... Hence the use for 10-3 which would contain a blk,red,white, and bare copper conductor...




    Here are some examples of the 1996 code change dealing with 3-wire and 4-wire receptacles...

    Three Wire Hook-up, Notice the Grounded (neutral) is also bonded to the frame of the dryer, so the neutral was also the ground.


    Four Wire Hook-up, Notice the Grounded (neutral) and Grounding (ground) conductors are isolated...
    chris please look at the 4 wire cord connector on the dryer there is two code voliations there allready

    1] where is the " strain relef aka NM clamp "

    2] did you see where the greenwire still on the netural wire

    Merci, Marc

  9. #24
    Electrician frenchelectrican's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hj
    You never saw a 4 prong plug for a dryer until the last decade at the earliest. Maybe you are too new in the business to go back that far.

    HJ: the code was in effect for Mobile homes for range and dryers it was enforced way back late 50's- early 60's

    the same with city of Chicago they have that code way before the NEC change that code as well

    HJ , you may want to ask any old electrician or find the older NEC code book that go back in history and find how far it went back.

    if you think the NEC is tough try this the european electrical code is very insane [ i allready got master from France so i am very famuiar with their insane code and connections that make your mind spin ]

    Merci , Marc

  10. #25
    Licensed Electrical Contractor Speedy Petey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frenchelectrican
    2] did you see where the greenwire still on the netural wire
    Marc, this is a pretty common procedure. That green is the one from the wiring harness that is bonded to the neutral.
    What's nice about doing it that way is if they ever move to a home with an older 3-wire receptacle it can be converted back without any trouble.

  11. #26
    Electrical Contractor sbrn33's Avatar
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    I am assuming that HJ doesn't know the difference between 10-2 and 10-3 and definitively doesn't know the difference between neutral and ground or understand that neutral is a current carrying conductor in most cases. This si why it must be insulated.
    Probably shouldn't be giving advice on an electrical forum.

  12. #27
    Electrician Chris75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frenchelectrican
    chris please look at the 4 wire cord connector on the dryer there is two code voliations there allready

    1] where is the " strain relef aka NM clamp "

    2] did you see where the greenwire still on the netural wire

    Merci, Marc
    What do you want from a picture off the net? perfect?

  13. #28

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    The ONLY exception was when SEU cable was used. This is the service cable that has two conductors with the grounded (NOT grounding) conductor wrapped around them.

    Semantics. #10 SE = 10-2.

    2 #10 hots and a ground.

  14. #29
    Licensed Electrical Contractor Speedy Petey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alectrician
    Semantics. #10 SE = 10-2.

    2 #10 hots and a ground.
    First of all, bull! #10 SEU would NOT be 10/2. It would be #10SEU, period. The conductor identification would be "3c 10".
    #2 SEU would be "2c 2, 1c 4". Two conductors #2 and one conductor #4.

    SER is rated the same way just a bit different. #2AL SER would be "2-2-2-4".

    Once again, #10 SE does NOT = 10-2.

  15. #30

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    In my county, 10-3 w G is now required for dryers, with a four prong cord.

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