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Thread: Neutral/ground at sub breaker panel

  1. #16
    DIY Member Cubey's Avatar
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    Lets look a bit deeper into the NEC code you referred to. You put in bold 400.8 Uses Not Permitted. but you completely ignored the following line: Unless specifically permitted in 400.7, flexible cords and cables shall not be used for the following ....

    Now lets look at 400.7:

    400.7 Uses Permitted

    (A) Uses Permitted. Flexible cords and cables must be used only for:
    (1) Pendants
    (2) Wiring of luminaires
    (3) Connection of portable lamps, portable and mobile signs, or appliances
    (4) Elevator cables
    (5) Wiring of cranes and hoists
    (6) Connection of utilization equipment to facilitate frequent interchange.
    (7) Prevention of the transmission of noise or vibration
    (8) Appliances where the fastening means and mechanical connections are specifically designed to permit ready removal for maintenance and repair, and the appliance is intended or identified for flexible cord connections
    (9) Data processing cables as permitted by 645.5
    (10) Connection of moving parts
    (11) Temporary wiring as permitted in Sections 527.4(B) and 527.4(C)
    Take note of number 3 and 6 which I placed in bold.

    According to number 3, it says portable lamps, signs or appliances. A 1500W heater is a portable appliance which would allow for flexible cable to be used on it. I would assume that means its power cord but that is what an extension cord is, just an extension of the power cord so that would mean that a long, flexible extension cord is fine to use on a heater. That doesn't really clarify the "though a wall" issue however.

    But..moving on to number 6...

    According to the list at http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owad...ARDS&p_id=9879 a recreational vehicle is considered "utilization equipment" which would allow flexible cable to be used to "facilitate frequent interchange" as mentioned in NEC 400.7.

    What I get from that is 400.8 says you absolutely can't:

    (1) As a substitute for the fixed wiring of a structure
    (2) Where run through holes in walls, structural ceilings, suspended ceilings, dropped ceilings, or floors

    Unless specifically permitted in 400.7, flexible cords and cables shall not be used [for the items listed above]".

    400.7 says you CAN use flexible cable for "utilization equipment" and the link above I provided states that an RV is "utilization equipment".

    So the NEC code seems to state that its perfectly fine to use flexible cable through a wall.

    Also, I found out today that is how they make RV 30 amp inlets. I thought they had a fixed male socket but it turns out they put a #10/2 flexible cable with a male plug inside of a compartment with a hatch cover which is what you plug your 30amp cord into, not a fixed socket like I thought. So your argument kind of just flew out the window about it being dangerous and against NEC code to run flexible cable though a wall. They do it on a daily basis in the US for manufacturing RVs at this very moment and its in keeping with the NEC code.

    11 in 400.7 may also apply but I can't seem to locate 527.4(B) and 527.4(C) in the NEC code online.
    Last edited by Cubey; 08-17-2007 at 06:23 PM.

  2. #17
    Licensed Electrical Contractor Speedy Petey's Avatar
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    Cubey, MAN, you are fishing, without bait.

    Nice try on all fronts but every argument is baseless.

    1) Flexible cords CANNOT be run through walls. Regardless of what you think you found you did not find any exemption for this rule. Mainly because there is none.

    2) Your "RV cord through a hatch theory" is totally WRONG. This is NOT a cord through a wall. It is a cord through a SPECIFICALLY designed hatch with a notch for the cord.


    Over the many years of coming to boards like this has taught me a few things. One of those things is recognizing when someone makes a statement like "Anyone can make a statement that something is dangerous but without the explaination as to why it is dangerous, how would anyone understand and not do it? Tell me WHY and WHERE it is dangerous.". This is almost always an indication that someone is fishing for the answer they want to hear. If they don't get that answer they call foul because they didn't get a full and detailed explanation. Sometimes a full and detailed explanation is quick and easy to put into words. Sometimes a full and detailed explanation is not worth it. Sometimes it can be well over the head of the average lay person.
    Sometimes folks just need to be told "DON'T DO IT", "THIS IS DANGEROUS", and they need to simply accept that.
    It's not like we are making out on this stuff. It's not like by telling you this our brother-in-law who is an electrician as well is going to get the job.
    We say this stuff because we know better, not because we will gain anything from it.
    This is why it amazes me when folks question us up and down the block when we say not to do certain things. Sometimes code is just CODE!

  3. #18
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cubey
    Lets look a bit deeper into the NEC code you referred to. You put in bold 400.8 Uses Not Permitted. but you completely ignored the following line: Unless specifically permitted in 400.7, flexible cords and cables shall not be used for the following ....

    Now lets look at 400.7:



    Take note of number 3 and 6 which I placed in bold.

    According to number 3, it says portable lamps, signs or appliances. A 1500W heater is a portable appliance which would allow for flexible cable to be used on it. I would assume that means its power cord but that is what an extension cord is, just an extension of the power cord so that would mean that a long, flexible extension cord is fine to use on a heater. That doesn't really clarify the "though a wall" issue however.
    Sorry big guy but your thinking is very flawed. There is no relief to allow a cord to pass through a dryer vent for a RV to be found in Article 400.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cubey
    According to the list at http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owad...ARDS&p_id=9879 a recreational vehicle is considered "utilization equipment" which would allow flexible cable to be used to "facilitate frequent interchange" as mentioned in NEC 400.7.
    Yes a RV is allowed to be cord and plug connected but it is also done in a UL approved manner.
    The site that you posted also states that an Industrial substations rule 1910.302(a)(1)(vii) but I canít for the life of me remember seeing one cord and plug connected, can you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cubey
    So the NEC code seems to state that its perfectly fine to use flexible cable through a wall.
    No the code clearly states that you can not run a cord through a wall from the outside to the inside to plug in an electric heater.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cubey
    So your argument kind of just flew out the window about it being dangerous and against NEC code to run flexible cable though a wall. They do it on a daily basis in the US for manufacturing RVs at this very moment and its in keeping with the NEC code.
    First it is not my argument but the argument of the National Fire Protection Agency that you are trying to buck.
    No they donít do it on a daily basis anywhere in the US. What they do in RV manufacturing companies is install a system that has been tested by a third party and install a system that has been approved and listed for the use.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cubey
    11 in 400.7 may also apply but I can't seem to locate 527.4(B) and 527.4(C) in the NEC code online.
    There is a very good reason why you canít find 527.4 (C) and it because there is no 527.4 (C).
    The Article that governs RV is 551 and 551.44 is the rule for the electrical supply to the RV.
    551.44 Power-Supply Assembly.
    Each recreational vehicle shall have only one of the following main power-supply assemblies.
    (A) Fifteen-Ampere Main Power-Supply Assembly. Recreational vehicles wired in accordance with 551.42(A) shall use a listed 15-ampere or larger main power-supply assembly.
    (B) Twenty-Ampere Main Power-Supply Assembly. Recreational vehicles wired in accordance with 551.42(B) shall use a listed 20-ampere or larger main power-supply assembly.
    (C) Thirty-Ampere Main Power-Supply Assembly. Recreational vehicles wired in accordance with 551.42(C) shall use a listed 30-ampere or larger main power-supply assembly.
    (D) Fifty-Ampere Power-Supply Assembly. Recreational vehicles wired in accordance with 551.42(D) shall use a listed 50-ampere, 120/240-volt main power-supply assembly.

    551.45 Distribution Panelboard.
    (A) Listed and Appropriately Rated. A listed and appropriately rated distribution panelboard or other equipment specifically listed for this purpose shall be used. The grounded conductor termination bar shall be insulated from the enclosure as provided in 551.54(C). An equipment grounding terminal bar shall be attached inside the metal enclosure of the panelboard.
    (B) Location. The distribution panelboard shall be installed in a readily accessible location. Working clearance for the panelboard shall be not less than 600 mm (24 in.) wide and 750 mm (30 in.) deep.

    As you can see you have missed it by a long shot.

    If you are going to fix the RV then do it right or not at all.

  4. #19
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Sorry Petey you posted while I was working, Well put!

  5. #20
    DIY Member Cubey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey
    Cubey, MAN, you are fishing, without bait.

    Nice try on all fronts but every argument is baseless.

    1) Flexible cords CANNOT be run through walls. Regardless of what you think you found you did not find any exemption for this rule. Mainly because there is none.

    2) Your "RV cord through a hatch theory" is totally WRONG. This is NOT a cord through a wall. It is a cord through a SPECIFICALLY designed hatch with a notch for the cord.

    This is why it amazes me when folks question us up and down the block when we say not to do certain things. Sometimes code is just CODE!
    Baseless?! That is the NEC code! You are the one who brought up the NEC code 400.8 and when I point out what it ACTUALLY says, you argue with the very code you mentioned. You have to be kidding me!! You make an argument and when it bites you in the butt you disregard it? I see how it is. You don't seem to know what in the world you are talking about! Yes, code is code. And the code says its allowed! Thats a code YOU pointed out to ME.

    Cables *CAN* be run through walls. The NEC code says it CAN and you just AGREED that it can be when it goes through special hatches or what have you. In the same breath you say that it's never okay to do it no matter what and then say its okay so long as you use special parts. HUH??

    What in the world have I already said about running the extension cord into the trailer? It will be going through a dryer vent with protects the opening and plugs from rain. That is exactly what the special RV hatch does. The dryer vent will do one better, the outlet on the extension cord will be far inside of the trailer out of possible wetness!

    People who accept things people say without question cannot think for themselves and have no clue about anything. An intelligent mind wants to know WHY something is so. That is called LEARNING. You cannot simply tell someone not to do something without telling them WHY. You do not teach them anything. You merely command them.

    Either you are full of it or you simply have a different definition of "running cable through a wall" than I do. I don't wish to simply drill a hole and run a cable through it. I wish to feed an extension cord through a hooded dryer vent (no actual dryer hooked to it!) which protects the opening from rain. Does as good of a job if not better than an RV 30A inlet hatch.

    I am arguing with your statement because you are not making any sense what so ever. You claimed it was dangerous and what have you. I ask you why. You say its against NEC code and provide me with 400.8. When I point out what 400.8 says that you skipped over, which says to refer to 400.7 and 400.7 says its ok, you completely disregard the NEC code altogether!

    I know an electrician that I will ask about this. I was trying to avoid asking him the favor but it since you are so completely involved in trying to be right no matter what I say will ever be right with you. I have to disregard your argument that completely ignores the NEC code 400.7 that I have pointed out to you.

    You have done nothing to help me. All you have done is argue with me and tell me I'm doing it wrong. You have not once actually given me any actual help or advice. You merely criticized me. That is not helpful. That is just rude.

    I will post the results of what the electrician says about both running in an extension cord and also the safety of the converter box I built. If he says its unsafe I will figure out something else. However, he will have the decency to explain WHY its dangerous so I don't make the mistake again some day and not just tell me not to do it. If I don't know what I'm doing wrong specifically how can I not do it in the future? Apparently that doesn't matter to you. you just want to order people around and not actually teach them anything.

  6. #21
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cubey
    You have done nothing to help me. All you have done is argue with me and tell me I'm doing it wrong. You have not once actually given me any actual help or advice. You merely criticized me. That is not helpful. That is just rude.
    Son neither of us are trying to be rude and both of us are trying as hard as we can to help you. What we can't do is help you if you are not willing to accept what we have to offer.

    You are sold on your idea and when someone is as sold on an idea as your are your idea it is hard to get them to stop and see the flaw in their idea.
    It is sorta of like telling some that a rose bush has thorns and will hurt them and then they can't see the rose for looking for the thorns.

    Leave my house going in any direction and you will pass a RV park within ten minutes. Within a 50 mile radius of my home there are at least 100 RV parks. Yes I have seen a few go up in smoke and one or two explode.

    What you are playing with is fire and I hope that you can see this before it is to late.

    I am now finished with this thread!

  7. #22
    Licensed Electrical Contractor Speedy Petey's Avatar
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    Cubey, I don't know who the hell you are talking to but it certainly is not me. At least not all of it.
    You quoted me but are going off on a rant about other things. That was my first reply in this thread and I didn't even quote a code section.

    I think you are so wrapped up in getting mad at us because you THINK we are "completely involved in trying to be right" that you don't want to hear anything but what you want to hear.

    I realize now why I have stayed away from replying in this thread until now. I think I'll go back to staying away.

    You have fun with your project and GOOD LUCK!

  8. #23
    DIY Member Cubey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric
    Sorry big guy but your thinking is very flawed. There is no relief to allow a cord to pass through a dryer vent for a RV to be found in Article 400.
    If you want to nit pick, the code DOESN'T SAY a lot of stuff. The code is not going to say that because almost no one thinks to do it. Either they are too rich to do any work for themselves and pays everyone to do their work for them and/or they buy a $100,000 RV with 50 amp service. Sorry, but I am not a rich man. I cannot afford a $100,000 RV. Heck I can't even afford a $5,000 used RV. My point is, the code can never give you an example for every possible safe way of doing uncommon things.

    If a code specifically says someplace that you cannot run an extension cord from outside to inside then your argument would be completely valid. But so far no one has done this. 400.8/400.7 pretty much knocked down that argument unless someone can provide a link to a code that specifically states that an extension cord cannot be run indoors even through a weatherproof opening in the wall.


    The site that you posted also states that an Industrial substations rule 1910.302(a)(1)(vii) but I canít for the life of me remember seeing one cord and plug connected, can you?
    Say what? It points out recreational vehicles. How the heck do you think an RV gets its power? By having the electric company come out and hard wire it to the pole every time you pull into an RV Park?

    No the code clearly states that you can not run a cord through a wall from the outside to the inside to plug in an electric heater.
    Show me where it says that. No, seriously. I want to see where it says that. If you can show me that, I will be wrong and I will apologize to you.

    There is a very good reason why you canít find 527.4 (C) and it because there is no 527.4 (C).
    The Article that governs RV is 551 and 551.44 is the rule for the electrical supply to the RV.
    551.44 Power-Supply Assembly.
    Each recreational vehicle shall have only one of the following main power-supply assemblies.
    (A) Fifteen-Ampere Main Power-Supply Assembly. Recreational vehicles wired in accordance with 551.42(A) shall use a listed 15-ampere or larger main power-supply assembly.
    (B) Twenty-Ampere Main Power-Supply Assembly. Recreational vehicles wired in accordance with 551.42(B) shall use a listed 20-ampere or larger main power-supply assembly.
    (C) Thirty-Ampere Main Power-Supply Assembly. Recreational vehicles wired in accordance with 551.42(C) shall use a listed 30-ampere or larger main power-supply assembly.
    (D) Fifty-Ampere Power-Supply Assembly. Recreational vehicles wired in accordance with 551.42(D) shall use a listed 50-ampere, 120/240-volt main power-supply assembly.
    Finally, someone who actually posts something relevant! That code makes perfect sense and I agree with it completely. However, I'm not discussing installing a second internal electrical system (well, I did mention but but I also didn't want to do it).

    I would like to have a portable, external outdoor system that converts 30A to 15A and then an extension cord plugged into 15A runs into the trailer via a dryer vent for running a heater. This involves two entirely different discussions really. One being the running of an extension cord into the trailer while being plugged into an external power outlet, and then about the 30A to 15A converter in itself.

    551.45 Distribution Panelboard.
    (A) Listed and Appropriately Rated. A listed and appropriately rated distribution panelboard or other equipment specifically listed for this purpose shall be used. The grounded conductor termination bar shall be insulated from the enclosure as provided in 551.54(C). An equipment grounding terminal bar shall be attached inside the metal enclosure of the panelboard.
    (B) Location. The distribution panelboard shall be installed in a readily accessible location. Working clearance for the panelboard shall be not less than 600 mm (24 in.) wide and 750 mm (30 in.) deep.
    That code seems to just talk about the breaker panel. According to that code I would be following it by using a specifically designed outdoor use power brealer/distribution center in a readily available location, outside. The box is designed for outdoor use for providing breakers/distribution and thats exactly what I wish to do with it. However, that is a completely separate matter than running an extension cord from outdoor to indoor.

    As you can see you have missed it by a long shot.

    If you are going to fix the RV then do it right or not at all.
    No, I haven't missed it. You are talking about doing something entirely different than I am. I'm not adding an electrical system to the trailer. I'm simply running an extension cord into the trailer from an external power source.

  9. #24
    DIY Member Cubey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric
    Son neither of us are trying to be rude and both of us are trying as hard as we can to help you. What we can't do is help you if you are not willing to accept what we have to offer.

    You are sold on your idea and when someone is as sold on an idea as your are your idea it is hard to get them to stop and see the flaw in their idea.
    It is sorta of like telling some that a rose bush has thorns and will hurt them and then they can't see the rose for looking for the thorns.

    Leave my house going in any direction and you will pass a RV park within ten minutes. Within a 50 mile radius of my home there are at least 100 RV parks. Yes I have seen a few go up in smoke and one or two explode.

    What you are playing with is fire and I hope that you can see this before it is to late.

    I am now finished with this thread!
    What causes fires most of all with RVs is people overloading their electrical systems by using cheater adapters which converts a higher amperage outlet to a lower amperage electrical system on an RV (ie: a $5 adapter from Wal-Mart that just changes a 30A outlet to a 15A outlet and thats it).

    I am trying to be safe. Thats why I'm even posting on this site! if I didn't care I would use a $5 cheater adapter and hope nothing overloaded. That is NOT what I'm doing here! You talk about fires and such. I'm seeking to NOT overload anything and NOT have a fire. Thats why I built a freaken proper 30A to 15A converter! It amazes me that no one can see this!

    I'm trying to find the safest, lowest cost way of handling this but all I have gotten from this site is grief about doing it wrong and no actual advice on how to do it right.

  10. #25
    DIY Member Cubey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey
    Cubey, I don't know who the hell you are talking to but it certainly is not me. At least not all of it.
    You quoted me but are going off on a rant about other things. That was my first reply in this thread and I didn't even quote a code section.

    I think you are so wrapped up in getting mad at us because you THINK we are "completely involved in trying to be right" that you don't want to hear anything but what you want to hear.

    I realize now why I have stayed away from replying in this thread until now. I think I'll go back to staying away.

    You have fun with your project and GOOD LUCK!
    No. What I want to hear is stuff relevant to the issue at hand. I want people to not act like I'm idiot and actually try to help me, not order me around. When someone was proven wrong they disregarded their original argument. That is just plain aggravating! I wanted help, not criticism.

  11. #26
    Jack of all trades frenchie's Avatar
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    Cubey, FYI? I'm not an electrician, but I know the guy you're argueing with. He teaches code for a living. If he says you're misunderstanding that section... you're probably misunderstanding that section. Chill out & ask him nicely, he might take the time to explain it to you, but get down off that high horse, first. Electricians with decades of experience go to him for help with code interpretation, or "where do I find the section that deals with ____". You do not know the code better than him.

    I don't think you understand what "unless specifically permitted" means. In code speak, the key word here is "specifically". There would have to be something in 400.7 that said some kinds of wires could be run through dryer vents, and there isn't.

    The interpretation you're using of 400.7, would make 400.8 completely redundant. If I can run an extension cord through a wall for any purpose that I'm allowed to use an extension cord in the first place, there would be no possible situation where I couldn't run a cord through a wall, except situation where I can't use a cord in the first place. Think about it. 400.8 would become meaningless.

    As a non-electrician who just happens to live in a northern climate, I'm going to point out the really obvious flaw in your plan: every electric heater I've ever seen, comes with a warning that you shouldn't use an extension cord with it. Oops! Time to switch to plan B.

    Mike, Petey - some input on Molo's wire-nut thread?
    Last edited by frenchie; 08-18-2007 at 12:31 AM.
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  12. #27
    DIY Member Cubey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frenchie
    Cubey, FYI? I'm not an electrician, but I know the guy you're argueing with. He teaches code for a living. If he says you're misunderstanding that section... you're probably misunderstanding that section. Chill out & ask him nicely, he might take the time to explain it to you, but get down off that high horse, first. Electricians with decades of experience go to him for help with code interpretation, or "where do I find the section that deals with ____". You do not know the code better than him.

    I don't think you understand what "unless specifically permitted" means. In code speak, the key word here is "specifically". There would have to be something in 400.7 that said some kinds of wires could be run through dryer vents, and there isn't.

    The interpretation you're using of 400.7, would make 400.8 completely redundant. If I can run an extension cord through a wall for any purpose that I'm allowed to use an extension cord in the first place, there would be no possible situation where I couldn't run a cord through a wall, except situation where I can't use a cord in the first place. Think about it. 400.8 would become meaningless.
    I did ask nicely at first but never got a decent response.


    Regarding "unless specifically permitted" the code actually doesn't say ANYTHING about any specific kinds of openings in the wall in which you COULD run a flexible cable through. According to you and him that means you can never do it.

    Yet the code pretty blatantly says that under certain circumstances such as with "utilization equipment to facilitate frequent interchange" which includes RVs you can do it. 400.8 says that it's allowed depending on certain conditions outlined in 400.7. Pretty sure that, under any sort of logic, means that for RVs you can run a flexible cable through a wall of an RV or other "utilization equipment to facilitate frequent interchange". Plus the fact that they do it on new RVs made in the USA. They use a special hatch/storage place for the hookup on the RV, but..... the code never says that it has to be a special kind of opening. The special openings on RVs are there just because thats the optimal way to do it. In the case of what I'm doing, a dryer vent is the optimal way to do it. Both are plastic, weather proof openings that allow the flexible cable to enter the RV.

    Unless the code contradicts itself that means you can run a flexible cable through the wall of an RV with any safe means needed. Weather proofing the hole in which it runs through is just plain common sense. If they added in every possible thing you must do for wiring, the NEC code would be a do-it-yourself guide to electrical wiring. They assume you know how properly and safely run the cable/wire you are installing so that you don't have water coming in the hole in which the cable is running.

    Also, I found a site that lists all of the 2005 NEC codes. There is a section (B) of 400.7 not posted up to now in this thread that points out about section 6 of 400.7(A) that states attachment plugs placed on flexible cable is permitted for plugging into an outlet for power. That would mean you can have a flexible cable to plug into an outlet for power according to 400.7(A). 400.8 seems to state that if 400.7(A) 6 is met then running the cable through a wall is permitted according to 400.8.

    Again, no where in 400.7 or 400.8 does it say any certain openings in the wall are allowed. 400.8 states that unless specifically permitted in section 400.7 it is not permitted to run a flexible cable through a wall. However, an RV falls under 400.7 sec 6 and therefore is permitted to have a flexible cable with a plug on it run through the wall. But it does not state that it needs any certain kind of opening in the wall anywhere in the code.

    Check out the attached image for the 400.7(B) section. I got that from here:
    http://www.nfpa.org/freecodes/free_a...eement.asp?id=
    The format in which the site presents the NEC codes via Java doesn't allow copy and paste so that is why I did a screen shot image instead.


    Quote Originally Posted by frenchie
    As a non-electrician who just happens to live in a northern climate, I'm going to point out the really obvious flaw in your plan: every electric heater I've ever seen, comes with a warning that you shouldn't use an extension cord with it. Oops! Time to switch to plan B.
    There is no plan B except completely rewiring the trailer or getting a better gas heater. A gas heater is more likely doable than rewiring the trailer I think unless I could figure out an easy way to add in a 30amp inlet. However according to the people in this thread (mis?)quoting the NEC code, I could never do that even though that is how all modern RVs are. Now do you see why I'm getting annoyed in this thread? According to the folks in this thread, it's against NEC code to even do it the proper way since it would require flexible cable to run through the wall. Sorry, but I'm not the one who is wrong here on the subject of flexible cable running through the wall of an RV. The others in the thread have simply stated flat out its against the NEC code and that is incorrect.

    I would have to say that the warning on heaters not to run it on an extension cord is due to the fact that most people would grab their light weight 2 wire household extension cord of about 16 gauge. The power cord on the heater I have is 14 gauge. If someone were to plug that into a 16 gauge cord and run it at 1500W, there is your fire hazard with using an extension cord right there. I plan(ned) on using a 25' 12 gauge extension cord so it will be able to carry the load of a 1500W heater without overloading it since the cord on the heater itself is 14 gauge.
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    Last edited by Cubey; 08-18-2007 at 01:32 AM.

  13. #28
    G.C. 22+ years(in 3 states) Old Dog's Avatar
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    Default codes...

    Sorry guys,I just had to jump in!
    Cubey,these guys are not picking on you.They are just trying to explain to you the dangers of using extension cords in this manner.As contractors(I'm a G.C.) we have to abide by the codes set forth in the collective trades.You said you wanted to learn so here goes...To put it simply,most codes are born out of trajedy.The reason the codes are there in the first place is because people(men,women,children) have DIED and/or property lost in a similar situation.the codes are there as a guildline for safe practices.These men posting here are concerned for your wellfare.No one said you couldn't do it.They just said you shouldn't do it!They backed up their statements with the appropiate codes.Now if you want to "cherry pick" a few lines in the codes to justify doing it your way thats your choice.
    Just do us a small favor...Google "fires started with extension cords."
    There are 994,000 examples for you to learn from!(YOU WILL BE AMAZED HOW MANY ARE STARTED WITH PORTABLE HEATERS!!!!)

  14. #29
    In the Trades Bob NH's Avatar
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    Oct 2005
    Location
    New Hampshire
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    3,307

    Default

    If I had to do this on an RV I would mount the subpanel to the RV, inside or outside the RV. Then you could connect one circuit from the subpanel to your existing circuit in some legal and safe manner, and the other circuit from the subanel to a duplex receptacle inside the RV. The second circuit could be mounted right off the subpanel enclosure if it is inside the RV.

    The input to the subpanel would come from a 30 Amp male connector mounted on the outside of the RV. I'm sure those are available from RV supply houses. http://www.pplmotorhomes.com/parts/r...FQ8cHgodaV_8PQ

    You can work out the details that fit the RV but the logical place to put the equipment is where the power now comes into the RV.

    You then have a legal connection both outside and inside. You have increased your capacity inside the RV by adding the second 15 amp circuit with the duplex outlet and you have maintained your existing circuitry inside the RV.

    You will have safely increased the total capacity of the RV circuits to 30 Amps with minimal cost.

  15. #30
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    North Carolina
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    Bob I almost agree with you except one thing.

    The RV is a listed piece of equipment and to alter the electrical system on the inside would alter the listing of the RV.
    There a lot of legal issues that occurs when someone alters the listing of a piece of equipment although it is done often.

    The use of portable electrical heaters in these RV vehicles is like playing with matches over an open can of gas.
    For weight control the walls and cabinets are made from thin wood or plastic components that are easily ignited.

    With the use of portable electric heaters the user is going to do one of two things. Either the heater is placed close to the wall where the heat is close to the kindling or cords are used and are either a trip hazard or get covered by something.

    Either way there is a hazard involved that shouldnít be in place and violates the rules outlined in 551 of the NEC as well as the UL listing of the RV unit.

    Having had dealings with several RV parks in my area I see some nightmares that the weekend DIYer has concocted. I have personally witnessed 100 amp panels, gas cook tops, gas furnaces, (both ran in copper tubing that was damaged from rubbing while being moved) and cords strung all over the place.

    Once reported to the management the RV was expelled from the park as a safety hazard.

    Now letís donít forget the people who buy RVs to live in full time. I have seen the charred ceilings from kerosene heaters, scorched walls from cooking appliances and the all too common burnt floors from drop cords. But then again, what do I know about electricity?

    We have people that have champagne taste but coke-a-cola pocket books that canít see any danger in what they are doing until it cost someone their life. These are the ones that donít have any business owning a RV at all.

    A good example of, ďwell it works so it must be alrightĒ from a full time RV owner.


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