Discussion or Tyranny?

**Terry** · 08-09-2007, 10:00 AM

I don't even want to talk about this.

There are those that use the CSV's
They tend to be the installers.

Then there are those that don't like them,
Of the people doing the most complaining, only one has tried one.

I don't have many people that have offered to help out, that have the real life knowledge and experience that can help out.

Valveman has those things going for him.

Most of the questions that Valveman has been posting on, are just normal pump questions. Here we have a guy that works 24/7 on pumps, has been asked by the National Water Well Convention to conduct classes, and yet we have three non-professionals that want to run him off of "my" site?
I'm not buying into that. If the "three" want to be experts on this, they can start their own site.

**Wet_Boots** · 08-09-2007, 05:26 PM

I install a device, a spin-down strainer, on every well-water sprinkler system, whether it's needed or not, even though it's usage comes with a small energy cost (about a 2 psi pressure drop) ~ the value of the time it would take to find out that it isn't needed is more than that of the strainer itself, and to do without a strainer when it's actually needed can damage sprinkler heads and valves, again costing more than the strainer does, so simple economy dictates the use of the strainer. The customers don't have any say in this policy.

A well and pump guy setting up a water system with a CSV, or equivalent device, is working on a similar wavelength, desiring system reliability over any other considerations, including minimum possible energy consumption.

You can argue these concepts, but pros hate callbacks, and they want to deliver reliable work at a competitive price.

All that being said, I look at a hatcheted thread with mixed feelings, since there can be some useful information being posted, even when the general ambience is that of a pie fight. The censoring can diminish the pool of knowledge, and I begin to think of the well-meaning folks who want to pull "Huckleberry Finn" from our libraries.

**Dunbar Plumbing** · 08-09-2007, 05:31 PM

That being said, it looks like it's time for a group hug Name: hug.gif
Views: 202
Size: 472 Bytes

I guess I need to look into these valves; more often these days my name is getting passed around to work on/build these systems and I'd rather not do them, call somebody else. Total replacement is what I'd rather offer to the customer as insurance...but troubleshooting is important. There's just a good deal of holdouts in my community that refused to connect to city water.

**geniescience** · 08-10-2007, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by Terry

...Then there are those that don't like ...

Real expert, who has patents and an ongoing business in the same field as his patents. Good for you, good for him, and it is also good news to all.

if a some people have a bee in their bonnet about certain topics, Terry it is up to you to tell them privately to change their hat and calm down about that subject. If they have a chip on their shoulder, Terry it is up to you to tell them to knock it off. If a bad situation is developing, Terry it is up to you to nip it in the bud. I find most forum owners let things go on too long when a little bit of talk would stop it early. Occasionally I have done some of this, and it works.

David

**GrumpyPlumber** · 08-10-2007, 09:34 AM

My thoughts...differing opinions are absolutely the most important thing on this site.
From what I see this site in particular has thrived on differing perspectives...simple fact is, no-one is perfect, there are pro's and con's to any topic.
Pumps/wells are at the bottom of the list for my personal experience ...so I pop in here (quietly) on occasion to read and learn a thing or two.
It's a horrendous thought that someone might censure any opinions that differ from his, but even more horrendous when a professionals opinion is insulted, or referred to as promoting a product.
I think RUGGED pretty much summed it up...you guys really oughta do a hug type thing...your each diminishing the value of this forum when you take a different point of view personally, or make it personal.
I have come to realize that every area/state has their own rules, and regimen...I've learned that I can't get insulted when another plumber thinks what we do here is substandard and vise versa.
Oh...and I definitely stand guilty as charged...no halo over this head.
I had to tone it down when I felt a post or question was rediculous...had a post or two of my own disappear (two of which I wanted deleted after the fact), in retrospect insulting someone who comes here seeking advice defeats the purpose of a "DIY" forum...so I had to respect that...and find a more tactful approach to disagree.
We need disagreement, it makes this site amazing....just leave the insult at the door.
yours truly, "Saint Grumpy"

**Verdeboy** · 08-10-2007, 10:10 AM

In Silver City, where I live, a very liberal-minded fellow started a forum to discuss all the important issues of the day. For a while, the forum was thriving, as both liberals and conservatives debated (sometimes very heatedly) all of these political topics.

At some point, the forum owner decided that he did not wish to hear anything that didn't mirror his very left-wing agenda. Thus, he began banning all conservatives and Republicans from the forum.

The forum is now completely dead.

That's an extreme example, but perhaps there's a lesson in it for this forum.

**Raucina** · 08-10-2007, 10:13 AM

Thanks Grumpy. Thats the only point, we cant have differing opinions when our moderator names three persons as distasteful to HIM. The censored posts were not technically incorrect, they were simply not to his liking or something that he not was taught to do. We who take the time to share our long years of experience in water handling do not deserve a slap in the face based on a desire to increase sales of the Mod's product.

Terry sells TOTO toilets, and knows that there are a lot of ways to make a toilet flush - I doubt that he would ask, say, an American Standard rep to moderate his forum.

Terry, I think valveguy has a pretty spot-on product for many applications, but in HIS own words, there are 10 or 20 alternatives. Would anyone here want one of those company owners here as moderator? I doubt it.

I think better instructions to the Mod would be enough, as toward keeping the finger off the delete key.

If the deletions continue, some of us will believe that valveman is paying compensation to you for the right to push everyone to his product. If that is so, at least let us know so we can fathom the basis of this censorship.

**Terry** · 08-10-2007, 10:34 AM

I don't receive money from anyone.
When I do start getting money, it will be obvious ads on the side columns.
You will know when I do.
Valveman may have a product to sell, but he also takes a lot of his time to give good answers.

**Gary Slusser** · 08-10-2007, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by geniescience

Real expert, who has patents and an ongoing business in the same field as his patents. Good for you, good for him, and it is also good news to all.

if a some people have a bee in their bonnet about certain topics, Terry it is up to you to tell them privately to change their hat and calm down about that subject. If they have a chip on their shoulder, Terry it is up to you to tell them to knock it off. If a bad situation is developing, Terry it is up to you to nip it in the bud. I find most forum owners let things go on too long when a little bit of talk would stop it early. Occasionally I have done some of this, and it works.

David

David, who do you think you are?

This time you've gone too far in telling people what do to and how to do it but at least you did it publicly.

In the past you have PMed me and told me what to do and how to do it with whom and when etc.... and others here have said they have heard from you through PMs as I have, that's one thing and I've said nothing publicly about it but...

Now you have the audacity to tell a forum owner how to run his forum. And it happens to be Terry Love, the fairest forum operator I've found and I've been on forums since they started many years ago.

I for one disagree with your way of running a forum but I will support you going off and starting one of your own and running it anyway you want to.

You can get a host for a fairly large web site for as little as $6 or less per month and free open source forum software and doityourway.

**geniescience** · 08-10-2007, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by Terry

.... Valveman may have a product to sell, but he also takes a lot of his time to give good answers.

Terry, you must know you have a real skill here, growing a web site that acts like this. This deserves public recognition too!

David
p.s. your assessment of valveman is in my mind fair and good. A man with a product is an OK thing, and a man who built his own product is even better. Not all people are skilled at moderating; that was my main point. My speaking to you "in public" may be irksome, but I trust you will take it in stride. I have seen you can handle this quite easily.

**leejosepho** · 08-10-2007, 02:25 PM

The CSV discussions got quite hot -- childishly personal -- some months ago, but I still learned everything I needed to know to make an informed decision that was confirmed by both Valveman and those who are otherwise inclined.

The difficulty of a moderator's job is directly proportional to the overall maturity of forum participants as well as his or her own, and that makes the overall success of the forum ultimately dependent upon us all.

**Raucina** · 08-10-2007, 07:17 PM

we take time to give good answers and we want them to stick as well.

**leejosepho** · 08-11-2007, 04:25 AM

Originally Posted by Raucina

we take time to give good answers and we want them to stick as well.

Yes, that kind of thing has been a problem here. Some time ago, it was suggested that the advocates of CSVs might be given an opportunity to present their case and have it protected, and the next day my post suggesting the same for the other guys was deleted!

Personally, I embrace this kind of approach to just about everything:

"A truth should be held up in all lights and at all angles ... until even the dullest of minds can understand it [and make an informed decision]" (Byron J. Rees, 1899).

**frenchie** · 08-11-2007, 04:54 AM

Hey, what happened to the first part of this thread?

...as long as we're being arrogant enough to give Terry advice:

I'd have left the first part of this thread, so latecomers could tell what it was about. But I'd have locked the thread after... what's now post #1.

Terry's site = Terry's rules.

Don't like it? Start your own site.

End discussion.