(206) 949-5683, Top Rated Plumber, Seattle
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 35

Thread: Power to a double switch

  1. #16

    Default

    frenchie...do you want me to pigtail the two whites?

    I have tried that (then the brass side has no connections)

    the blacks are each tied to their respective black screws.

    the fan still works that way....

    i am sure it won't be too difficult with all this advice coming in...

    First thing monday morning... I will draw a sketch, scan it...and post it.
    Last edited by lee polowczuk; 08-05-2007 at 07:52 PM.

  2. #17
    Jack of all trades frenchie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY and Fire Island, NY
    Posts
    1,244

    Default

    Yup, pigtail the whites. That's the critical connection you're lacking, right now.

    If the 2 screws on the "hot side" of your switch is still connected by the little tab, it only needs one black wire connected to it - the one bringing power to the switch. If the tab's been broken off and thay are completely independant, then you need to pigtail that black, and connect to both screws.

    Making sense, yet?

    The other black, that goes to the light, is now a switch leg - like the red is for the fan - it goes on the OTHER side.


    ...if this still isn't making sense to you, I really think you should call in a pro.
    Last edited by frenchie; 08-05-2007 at 11:30 PM.

  3. #18

    Default

    Let's see if this makes any sense.

    Frenchie... i think i am catching on.

    Pigtail whites.

    Attach fan black to upper switch

    Attach light black to other side of lower switch
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  4. #19
    Jack of all trades frenchie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY and Fire Island, NY
    Posts
    1,244

    Default

    Sorry, man, I can't make out your drawing, it's too small - and I can't seem to zoom it. And what I can see, ain't making much sense... Can you zoom it in & crop a bit or something?

    WAIT A MINUTE! There's a junction box somewhere in all this? Please explain, with a LOT more detail...

    I had thought there were only 3 boxes involved, kinda like this:
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by frenchie; 08-06-2007 at 07:16 AM.

  5. #20
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    2,523

    Default

    Frenchie

    I copied his drawing to paint and enlarged it and it still makes no sense.

    No he hasn't got it yet!!!

    Edited to add;

    Does this help you understand why some of the people at JLC get the answers that they get in The Electric Shop?

    Over there the people are supposed to be professionals trying to do the same thing that is being done here. Do you think that a real professional would try something this far outside their knowledge?

    Keep up the hard work and he will get it sooner or later.
    Last edited by jwelectric; 08-06-2007 at 08:10 AM.

  6. #21

    Default

    I know i will get it....

    if you guys were here..it would probably take 2 minutes to figure out.

    I'll keep you posted..and try not to bug you any more

  7. #22
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    2,523

    Default

    Take a minute and explain just what you have.

    Start with where the power is coming into and go from there.

    Ie;
    Is the power coming into the same box with the switch or is it coming in the box with the light?

    Are both fan and light coming into the switch or are they going to a different junction box?


    Start with where the power is coming into and go to each point that you are wanting to control telling the type of cable you have installed.

  8. #23

    Default

    Here is the way I understand it.

    The old fan worked fine, i just wanted to replace it because it was noisy.

    At the same time, i wanted to add a new light during my bath remodel. So I wanted to put two "appliances" on a single gang double switch.

    The fan had to have power somehow... so i looked up in the ceiling and there was a junction box there. It fed the fan in one direction, (which i tied black white stripe to black and white to white) and a separate wire from the junction box ran down the wall to the wall switch.

    That wire had a white and a black/white stripe (it is not modern day romex, so no ground).

    Hooked it up and it worked. Essentially a plug and play replacement

    i then ran romex from the new light down the wall. So i have yellow romex with a white, black , and ground. I need to get power to that light and to the wall switch.

    it seems like there should be an easy way to tie the fan power to the switch, and then the switch to the light.

    You guys are way too patient. My neighbor has promised to help me, but I want to learn and understand the concepts..thus my fight onward.

    i have the ceiling buttoned up. However the wall is open and i can see another romex that can be tapped into if necessary. it feeds another wall switch (a three way) for purposes of this argument this paragraph should probably be deleted to avoid confusion

  9. #24
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    2,523

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lee polowczuk
    The fan had to have power somehow... so i looked up in the ceiling and there was a junction box there. It fed the fan in one direction, (which i tied black white stripe to black and white to white) and a separate wire from the junction box ran down the wall to the wall switch.

    That wire had a white and a black/white stripe (it is not modern day romex, so no ground).

    Hooked it up and it worked. Essentially a plug and play replacement
    In the junction box you have the supply from the panel. The white from the supply in this junction box is connected to the white that goes to the fan. The black from the supply is connected to one of the conductors going to the switch and the other conductor from the switch is connected to the black going to the fan.

    Does this sound right?

    If I am right then the two conductor coming from the junction box to the switch will need to be replaces with a three conductor in order to get the two lights to work from the stacked switch and the two conductor cable from the new light needs to go to the junction box.

    Quote Originally Posted by lee polowczuk
    i then ran romex from the new light down the wall. So i have yellow romex with a white, black , and ground. I need to get power to that light and to the wall switch.

    it seems like there should be an easy way to tie the fan power to the switch, and then the switch to the light.
    Here is where you are going wrong. If there is only two conductors coming from the junction box to the switch then the switch does not have the grounded (neutral) conductor that would be required for the light to operate. The cable for the light MUST go to the junction box in order to tie into the grounded (neutral) conductor there.

    The switch would then need three conductors as follows, one to supply current to the switch and one conductor for the fan and another to supply the light.

    Think of this circuit like this; current is supplied from the black wire and MUST return through the white wire. The supply (black) wire and the return (white) wire from the panel is in the junction box. As it was originally installed the current came into the junction box down to the switch back to the junction box to the fan returning on the white wire to the junction box and then to the panel.
    To add another fixture to this circuit we MUST have the return (white) path and a supply (black or any other color) for the new fixture.
    From the junction box we connect both the fan and light return (white) wires to the return (white) wire going back to the panel. Then send the current down to the stacked (two) switches (if using three conductor NM cable the white conductor with a color tape at each end to reidentify it as other than white) wire through each switch back to the junction box through the black and red wire to the fan and light by way of the black wire to each.

    Now we have current coming into the junction box going down to the switch and back to the fan (black) and the new light (red) through each back to the junction box through the white where they both can return on the white in the supply.

  10. #25

    Default

    In the junction box you have the supply from the panel. The white from the supply in this junction box is connected to the white that goes to the fan. The black from the supply is connected to one of the conductors going to the switch and the other conductor from the switch is connected to the black going to the fan.

    Does this sound right?

    Yes, this sounds right

    If I am right then the two conductor coming from the junction box to the switch will need to be replaces with a three conductor in order to get the two lights to work from the stacked switch and the two conductor cable from the new light needs to go to the junction box.

    I am beginning to understand... but the junction box could now be a PIA to get to...

    I will have to think this through a bit....

    You guys are worth your weight in gold.. i can do plumbing and auto mechanics (non electrical), but electricity really throws me.

    i am also wiring for a whirlpool tub and heater...but those on are dedicated GFCI circuits..and i will have an electrician (i always planned for this) hook it up to the basement panel..

    i'll keep you posted on the eventual solution.

  11. #26
    Aspiring Old Fart, EE, computer & networking geek Mikey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    2,685

    Default

    Bottom line is you've got to understand the notion of a "circuit". There's a reason that a battery has two contacts on it, a receptacle has two outlet holes (plus the 3rd -- a ground -- which we can ignore for this discussion), and two wires come from the panel. In all these cases, one wire (the "hot" wire) can be thought of as the source of the electricity, but you can't actually "use" electricity without returning the "used" electricity to the other contact, wire, hole, etc.

    The way you've wired the light, if I understand it, is you've got two wires going to it, but both of these wires come from the source -- ultimately the black wire from the panel. One side of the light has to be connected to the return side -- the white wire from the panel.

    Moral: never close up your work until it works.

  12. #27
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    21,388

    Default

    Let me try again.

    WIth the cable that comes from the power panel, when it gets into the box where the fan is now do this:
    - add a new 2-wire cable: connect it to the incoming wire from the panel: black to black, white to white, and connect the ground wire (since you don't have one coming from the panel) to the box.
    - run this wire to the new light fixture's box.
    - connect the white wire to the light's white wire, and the ground to the box.
    - take the wire you ran to the switch, and connect it's white wire to the black on the lamp and the black to the black of the two cables.

    Mentally, now, follow the power - from the power panel the hot wire gets jumpered and runs down to your new switch. WHen you close the switch, it runs back up to the hot side of the lamp (it's black wire). Through the lamp, to the white wire that goes back to the power panel through the jumpers between the two boxes.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  13. #28
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    2,523

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lee polowczuk
    I am beginning to understand... but the junction box could now be a PIA to get to...
    All juction boxes are required to be;
    Accessible (as applied to wiring methods). Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building.

  14. #29

    Default

    I just have to pull out the fan and box is there.

  15. #30
    Aspiring Old Fart, EE, computer & networking geek Mikey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    2,685

    Default

    I suspect that even though the box is "accessible" as required, it now ain't so easy to get another wire into as it used to be. Lee, welcome to the wild and wonderful world of wire-fishing! All you've really got to do is get a single wire from the fan, to either the switch or the light -- child's play.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •