Galvanized pipe rusted...maybe?

Yeah there's no galvanized bladder tanks, rancher.

I don't believe I ever did say there were Galvanized Bladder tanks, it wouldn't make sense since the water is supposed to stay in the Bladder, not against the metal... although it doesn't do that very well. I'm surprised that someone hasn't come up with a reliable system to add air to a galvanized tank to make it more reliable... perhaps here is another chance for Valveman to patent an idea, so we can replace these unreliable bladder tanks. Make a CSV integral with the air pump mechamism and Wa La, you got another winner.

Rancher

speedbump said:

You said you were going to buy an inline filter and fill it with chlorine tablets. You have no control of how much chlorine will be in the water. I would have to think it would be extremely high. If your going to chlroinate, use a chlorinator of some sort.

bob...

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I feel like the stronger the chlorination the better to kill the bacteria. I'm not putting it in my well this time. I'm going to buy two new garbage cans and make a solution to pump in there. I will just make sure I flush the lines well before showering. I may even make a loop so that I ensure a good line cleaning. I know they say leave it in there for 12-24 hours, but you just can't compete with the agitation of a running loop. I will do both to be sure.


I did buy a new Wellmate fiberglass bladder tank. I'm not sure why someone said that my ruptured bladder in a steel tank is not the possible source of the bacteria. One thing that keeps getting ignored is that all of the lines before the tank are clean and all of those after are orange/brown.


This all happened too quickly after I drained the system to move the lines for a new foundation pour. I took bad advice from someone and bled the old metal pressure tank and I believe I burst the bladder myself. Live and learn. This was my first well so I asked around and followed bad advice. I guess it was the blind leading the blind. I had no IRB's up until then. A month or two later it was prevalent...just enough time for the tank to rust severely on the inside and begin forming IRB's.

I hope this new fiberglass tank and chlorination is going to take care of it. Hind sight is 20/20.
I will keep you guys updated.

Rancher, my point was that Bob was talking about no galvanized bladder tanks, and you question about fiberglass tanks as if that's what he meant.

Blan, you're not doing this right. Add bleach to your housing to just below the o-ring. Run the water at a sink into a large glass etc. with your nose on the rim smelling for chlorine. When you do shut off the water. Do that at all sinks. Then run hot water for 30 seconds and shut it off. Then turn on the tub for 15 seconds and shut it off. Then flush the toilet. Do each bathroom that way. Turn on the washing machine cold/cold for 10 seconds. Same for the dish washer; ten seconds.

Then go open the filter housing. Dump and fill it with bleach again. Wait 15 to 20 minutes and run each cold at all the sinks for 10 seconds and shut off the water. Repeat that 3-4 times. Then wait 15-20 minutes and flush all plumbing of the bleach, including the toilets and washers. Put the clothes washer into spin as the last thing you do, don't let the chlorinated water sit in the washer. Same for the dish washer.

That's the proper way the sanitize a house. If you get dirty water, that's good but if it is always dirty, repeat the whole process with another housing of bleach, or as many as needed. I've never had to use more than three.

Too much chlorine is not good. I'm not feeling this, I know what I'm talking about. I done this for 20 years, for customers with bacteria contaminated water and follow up bacteria testing, some required by state regs. You don't want a running loop for this. And if you were shocking the well, only a garden hose from the house to the well for 15-20 minutes.

I feel like the stronger the chlorination the better to kill the bacteria. I'm not putting it in my well this time. I'm going to buy two new garbage cans and make a strong solution to pump in there. I will just make sure I flush the lines well before showering. I may even make a loop so that I ensure a good line cleaning. I know they say leave it in there for 12-24 hours, but you just can't compete with the agitation of a running loop. I will do both to be sure.

So you don't believe the bladder tank can't introduce bacteria.... OK, how do you suppose the bacteria got in the tank if it doesn't come in with the water from the well? How many bad tanks with ruptured bladders have you replaced? I can't count how many I've done but, they are sealed from outside and full of water inside, so how does the bacteria get into a tank.

Your orange of from oxidized ferrous iron. That makes it ferric iron, called rust. Air = oxygen, oxygen is an oxidizer.

If the old tank was galvanized, there was no bladder in it; it would be an air over water type tank and the air is added to/replaced each pump run. You don't bust bladders by draining the water out of a bladder type tank.

You have no way of knowing when IRB entered your water system but trust me, they live in and on the ground and on, in and under water, including ground water. They do that because IRB is made up of many types of bacteria, it is a group of bacteria, some require oxygen and some don't.

Rust in a tank isn't caused by bacteria. All waters usually have an amount of DO (dissolved oxygen) in them. Oxygen is an oxidizer. Your bladder or air over water tank had the air to convert any iron in your water into ferric iron, rust in the pipes.

When we kill IRB, it adds iron back into the water; they eat iron and steel and when the cell ruptures, iron is released into the water.

They live in any kind of acceptable environment. For instances, 70%+ of the Titanic is gone because of IRB eating it. Find a picture of the wreck and you can see the tendrils of IRB hanging off it. Look up BARTS water tests for more info. Or go to here;
http://www.groundwaterscience.com/well-performance-maintenance-and-rehabilitation/bio-primer.html

Seems like the return loop to the well is critical to circulating the chlorine. I use 2 hole well seals so I have a port for chlorinating and circulating water back through to wash off the dog shit and other ca ca from the drop pipe.

OK, you seem to do most things differently than acceptable methods but... that's not the best way to do it. Short cuts rarely work as well as doing something right.

You miss a lot of the casing and then can't rinse the chlorine off all the casing. And it's best to mix/dilute the chlorine and then add it to the well. Hopefully you only do this stuff on your own well and not your tenants or customers' wells.

Hey guys,
Just checking in again. I guess I should explain my line of thinking as to why I recirculated the chlorinated water into a clean garbage can instead of back down into my well. I chose to hook my pump up to the garbage cans full of chlorinated water via PVC pipes and made my loop. I felt that the nasty junk in my lines would possibly contaminate the well more if I recirculated down there. I'm glad I didn't do it that way because there was a ton of orange muck floating inside the garbage cans when I finished. It wouldn't have made sense to send that crud down into my well. I am sorry that I didn't chlorinate the well at the same time though (with fresh clean chlorine). It has been pretty good for a couple weeks now.
I am seeing a small amount of loose orange particle slowly coming back. I don't know if it is crud flaking off of my water lines or the bacteria making a comeback. I should probably chlorinate the well soon just to be sure. Once I don't see junk coming out of the drains, I won't mind recirculating it down the well.
Unfortunately I don't have a dual outlet well so it is quite an ordeal to chlorinate down the well. First I have to disconnect the wiring to my pump and spin the entire pump around to remove it. Then I have to dissassemble each piece of galvanized pipe to break it down to where I can unscrew the drop pipe coupler. It is in tight quarters so this is just the way it has to be done.

You could drill a hole in your well cap and use an expanding rubber test plug to seal it, for future chlorination. And I agree, chlorinate, pump crud, wait until clear, then chlorinate again and do the loop circulation THEN.

still the same

Hey guys,
It looks like my iron/irb problem may not be resolved by manual chlorination down the well. It lasts for a little while, maybe 6 weeks or so, but it always returns as I have been told is common. I have been investigating chlorination/dechlorination systems, iron filters, etc. Most of them are far more expensive than our budget will allow.

Honestly, this has been one of the most frustrating experiences of my life. I've had four different water treatment guys come to the house to test the water and offer a solution, and each one tears down the other company's products. Each claims they have the best product while all others are useless. They are sounding like BS used car salesman and I have lost respect for them. I'm astounded that these companies believe that there is enough technology in their little tanks to justify charging $5000 to $10,000 for residential systems. It takes some big Kahunas to try to pull that off on a homeowner. I'm even more astounded that there are people (aka suckers) out there actually buying these products. It is criminal. I encourage folks out there with similar problems to get more than one opinion because you'll be shocked by what you hear. 3 of the 4 tried to sell me expensive water softener treatment systems. From what I have researched , this won't work on iron bacteria. They claimed it will saying that "if you remove iron you won't have iron bacteria." The 4th guy said it will only remove irb's for a very short period then fail to. I don't know who to believe anymore.

Consider for one second the technology, R & D, quantity of parts and cost of materials in building an ATV, motorcycle or even a car. You can buy very nice examples of these for $10k. How can that even begin to compare with the few parts needed to build water conditioning equipment? This isn't carbon fiber for heavens sake, it is plastic, steel and fiberglass. Cost of materials for the manufacturer is probably less than $150 for a softener. I have rebuilt a couple of these units and have seen how simplistic they are. So why would someone pay thousands for the equipment? My guess is that someone figured out long ago that people will pay almost anything when convinced by the right fast talking salesman and enough confusing numbers to make your head spin. I'm not saying that all water conditioning equipment is created equally, just that the prices are ridiculous. If their profit margin was mandated to say 50% we probably would not see a product over $1200. The "fat cats" at the top of these firms are loving it.

If anyone has some honest solutions to offer (without having anything to gain from your advice) I would love to hear it. There must be a way to treat a problem such as this for under $2k. I don't care if I have to build a system myself...I'm willing to do what it takes. Unfortunately you just can't squeeze blood from a radish and I refuse to finance water. According the studies, irb's are not harmful to humans so how do companies justify these costs?

I got honest solutions but I sell the stuff and give advice based on more than a passing opinion.

It sounds like Blan has just about ignored all the advice here and done things his way. He has a galvanized bladder tank with a ruptured bladder to spite what we told him and he is still chlorinating (destroying) his well. He says he has Iron Bacteria which is strongly doubt and needs to have his water checked which I doubt he has done. I for one haven't seen any water analysis numbers yet.

This is the the "going about things the wrong way" in a nutshell.

bob...

Gary Slusser said:

Liz, if I'm understanding you correctly - when we recycle bleach bottles we don't make new bleach bottles out of the old ones. They make plastic tables, chairs, garbage cans etc. out of that plastic. So your water treatment dealer is leading you astray.

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I would think what the treatment dealer was talking about potentially was the transfer of the chlorine BEFORE it's final bottling may be done in containers that are returned. Tanker truck, huge plastic drums, etc. may house the chlorine that gets used in the chlorine bleach not intended for potable water treatment. Sure, the end user bottles get recycled, but what about containers before that?

When bleach or other liquid chlorine is used, it is bottled in the same bottle the shopper buys and carries home or has delivered to them by their supply house. The same for dairy farm milk rooms, restaurants, hotels, motels etc..

The chlorine used in city water is usually a gas and it is delivered in and used out of reusable repressurized steel tanks.

speedbump said:

It sounds like Blan has just about ignored all the advice here and done things his way. He has a galvanized bladder tank with a ruptured bladder to spite what we told him and he is still chlorinating (destroying) his well. He says he has Iron Bacteria which is strongly doubt and needs to have his water checked which I doubt he has done. I for one haven't seen any water analysis numbers yet.

This is the the "going about things the wrong way" in a nutshell.

bob...

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Speedbump, I have not ignored anything...you're just not reading thoroughly. I had a steel (not galvanized) bladder tank. As it turns out, it was probably fine (not ruptured) even though it looked very rusty on the outside because changing to a fiberglass tank was no vast improvement. $130 was a drop in the bucket to see if the iron problem would be resolved/reduced compared to some of the big dollar suggestions I have heard.
Maybe you didn't read my last posted stating that my water was tested? Which numbers would you like to hear? These are the numbers I was given:

pH = 7.2

H S =0
2

FE=6.0ppm

Hardness= 24 grains

Total Dissolved Solid = 780ppm

Iron Bacteria present-no value given.

Maybe you're upset because I haven't purchased your equipment. I came here for advice...not another sales pitch.
Unfortunately, we are not all graced with a fat wallet and a $3 jug of 6% bleach cleans up my problem for 1.5 months while you suggest what?

Let me ask this,
Is it possible (or adviseable) to drill and tap a fitting into the galvanized well pipe where it exits the ground so that a small amount of chlorine may be added as periodic maintenance if desired? Obviously I would cap off the fitting when not in use so no oxygen gets in there. Any problems that one might forsee with this?

As it stands now, I have trouble finding the time for follow up treatments because I have to break everything down to get to my well pipe. I have been told here and elsewhere that follow up chlorinating is usually necessary to rid the bacteria but I have trouble scheduling them in because it takes all day to break it down, chlorinate and re-assemble.

Obviously, if you have the cabbage, use the proper chlorination/de-chlorination system, iron filter, softener and whatever is in your budget to do it right.

I just saw your long saga dealing with your well. Since your problem started all at once after the well was in for several years the problem is probably the galvanizing on your well casing is gone.

Galvanizing corrodes more easily than steel and it goes first saving the steel. Once it is gone the steel starts to corrode and then the bacteria have some thing to eat.

There are some products on the market that claim to eliminate iron bactiera for good. You need to treat with what they call a cataysit and chlorine with pH buffers. You also need to agitate the mixture for an extended period of time to make sure it is dispersed outside of the well.

I would suggest you have a plastic well drilled and most if not all of your problems will go away.

Blan.... I don't think Speedpump has tried to sell you anything, and niether have I. He is a pump guy, I'm a water treatment guy.

Also, we did not contact you about anything. You came here for advice, hopefully from someone that knows what they are doing. Trust me, we do, we aren't like Joe down the road with an opinion he pulled out of his ear or some other orifice. Together we have like 50 years experience in wells and water treatment.

You've already received a lot of free information that we freely donated without any obligation on your part, along with the time it took us to type it AFTER giving up the time it took to read and sometimes study what has been said, to then be able to donate more time to reply again. So, you want help from me, and I suspect Speedbump, I think you're going to have to open your mind toward those of us in business and dump the attitude. Or we'll probably let you ruin your well with your dumb chlorination idea. It's up to you.

pitless said:

I just saw your long saga dealing with your well. Since your problem started all at once after the well was in for several years the problem is probably the galvanizing on your well casing is gone.

Galvanizing corrodes more easily than steel and it goes first saving the steel. Once it is gone the steel starts to corrode and then the bacteria have some thing to eat.

There are some products on the market that claim to eliminate iron bactiera for good. You need to treat with what they call a cataysit and chlorine with pH buffers. You also need to agitate the mixture for an extended period of time to make sure it is dispersed outside of the well.

I would suggest you have a plastic well drilled and most if not all of your problems will go away.

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Thanks for the advice.
I have given alot of thought to a new well...even a deep artesian well, but unfortunately I don't have enough land to put another well in without alot of trouble/variances. Our town charges $450 for one variance, non refundable and you must to go before a committee and convince them as to why you should be allowed a variance. They usually won't allow them except in extreme cases of hardship. Lots are very small here (island) and they have strict codes on how far a well must be placed from a septic tank or a recently treated foundation. The current well now sits only a few feet off of a new foundation/garage, therefore they won't let me put a new well there anymore. I was able to build close to the well but you can't put a well close to a foundation after it has been treated (which is required by code) so go figure.

The other bummer is that the water problem did not occur until right after the garage was completed. Now a well drilling truck can no longer get in there. Had the problem showed up 3 months earlier I could have put in new well before building the garage build. The existing well is only about 6 years old now so who would have thought it would incur these problems so early.

I still would be surprised if the galvanized material failed after only 6 years but anything is possible. I was not here when they put in the well...it may be PVC underground with a galvanized pipe at the top for all I know. Maybe I can ask the original well driller how makes them.

Do you know the names or where to find the products that you are suggesting?

Nobody has commented on the idea of adding a fitting to the well pipe for easier treatment?

I was going to apologize for missing the test results until I went back and looked for them. Unless I'm blind they are nowhere to be found except in your last blast at me.

The only numbers I saw quoted by you was the over priced figures you were bitching about. If you have a problem with someone selling you something that's your prerogative. If you want to keep listening to the advice you want to hear as opposed to good advice that's also your business.

You did state that you had a galvanized bladder tank to which there is no such thing.

As for putting Chlorine down your well repeatedly, have at it. When the casing rots out, we can say we told you so.

Good luck,

bob...

speedbump said:

I was going to apologize for missing the test results until I went back and looked for them. Unless I'm blind they are nowhere to be found except in your last blast at me.

The only numbers I saw quoted by you was the over priced figures you were bitching about. If you have a problem with someone selling you something that's your prerogative. If you want to keep listening to the advice you want to hear as opposed to good advice that's also your business.

You did state that you had a galvanized bladder tank to which there is no such thing.

As for putting Chlorine down your well repeatedly, have at it. When the casing rots out, we can say we told you so.

Good luck,

bob...

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Speedbump,
Please go away for God sake. I haven't asked for your input and you're just getting off on stroking your own ego. I corrected myself long ago saying that my old tank was painted steel. I'm not interested in your input anymore. We got it already...chlorination feedpump. You are just counter productive.

I'm listening to everybody's ideas and taking them all in. Thanks for your time Speedbump now please go bother someone else in another post. I appreciate all of the input I'm getting from everyone in here and only you are taking offense to me not running with your ideas yet. As for chlorinating "repeatedly" as you say....I don't consider a few gallons of 6% chlorine bleach over a year to be excessive. I only did it differently the very first time and I changed that method because of the advice received in here. I do heed the advice when I get it. Alot of people in my area chlorinate every six months/year just for periodic maintenance (according to the local well drillers). Even the government sites for almost every state suggest this method for IRB control. Do a google search. Yes it might only be a temporary solution.

We really don't need you to constantly reiterate that chlorine will destroy metal and the well casing...no sh*t sherlock chemist. In time it sure will. I live near the ocean and the casing is going to rot out quickly no matter what I do.

If I had the money, it would be best to do it right with a chlorination/dechlorination system, a filter, and in my case, probably a softener also. Unfortunately there does not seem to be a COST EFFECTIVE method for keeping sprinkler system iron stains off the driveway, sidewalk and house because of the volume of water used. "Cost effective" will obviously be different for everyone. Alot of folks can absorb an extra $75-100 a month in chemicals, salt, chlorine etc and it may well be cost effective for them. Even potassium permanganate or chlorine injection systems are a costly solution with high volume sprinkler systems. Our goals may be different than most as we are primarily looking for a cosmetic solution to iron staining. We distill and carbon filter our drinking water.