Galvanized pipe rusted...maybe?

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blan

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Hi all,
We moved into a new house 2/10 mile from the ocean about 15 months ago. The house and well were new in 2001. I believe our well is about 100 feet deep with a jet pump and worked flawlessly for our first year in the house.
Recently I had to rotate my well pump, a Starbrite ProJet HNE-L, 180 degrees to make room for a new detached garage foundation. Everything was cool for about two months after I made the change to the pump. Suddenly in a matter of two days our house water began purging alot of iron and everything turns orange. Being that we were in a drought, I thought that it was possibly due to a very low water table and hoped it would go away. There is no noticeable sediment. Our toilets now turn orange in a matter of two days...not to mention showers sinks etc. I don't even want to think about what its doing to my hot water heater.
There is a water spigot just after the pump itself where I checked the water prior to where it enters the pressure tank to detirmine if the rust was coming from the tank itself. The water was still bad.
My best guess is that the galvanized well pipe has rusted through (in just 6 years) and now it is leaching into my system. Does this sound accurate? Is there a plastic (maybe PVC) sleeve available that I can install inside my galvanized pipe to fix this problem? Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
I know that everyone wants to say "get a water softener" but the problem came too quickly for there not to be an underlying problem. We had no water softener prior to this and everything was great...nice clean water. Please Help!
blan
 
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blan

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possibly iron bacteria

After some more research I have come to the conclusion that I may have a bad case of iron bacteria in my well and home feed lines. Since the iron scum has now eaten thru my jet pump seals/gaskets causing a leak, I have to remove it anyway to repair and I might as well shocked the system with tablets or chlorine bleach.
Last night I did a test where I poured a little bleach into a commode to see how it affected the orange/brown coloration that shows up so quickly after cleaning. In just a few minutes, and with a little agitation, the coating had loosened off of the bowl easily. If it was pure rust stains without bacteria, I wouldn't expect such strong results. This is what led me to this conclusion.
I think this might be a better explanation of my problem because the well is only 6 years old and I just can't believe the galvanized pipe would have broken down that quickly. I may have inadvertantly contaminated the lines when I moved the pump for the new foundation. I amazed at how fast this problem showed up and worsened.
Has anyone had success with removing iron bacteria from their system without installing a $3000 system for destroying bacteria? The local well drillers claim that I won't be able to get rid of it and that I will need to have a whole new well drilled deeper to resolve this. Does this sound right or is it just a ploy for them to make some money?
 

Gary Slusser

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More likely than a casing failure (although that's possible), you probably busted rust loose when you worked on the pump and plumbing at the well OR, the water quality underground changed.

You need a water test for iron, pH, TDS and manganese if possible.

Is the water discolored or clear when run out a faucet?

Did you actually see evidence of IRB? Anything from clear to black snotty slimy jelly like stuff in the toilet tank at the water line or below it.

I've successfully treated a lot of IRB.

You have a new well drilled, you don't get a guarantee of finding water let alone water with no IRB etc..

I suggest my inline erosion pellet chlorinator and special mixing tank followed by a correctly sized backwashed filter with special carbon. Correctly sized for the family size, water quality and peak demand water use gpm.
 

blan

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OK, I will get the water tested. My water comes out clear but if you pour it into a white bin it will turn orangish/brown tinge after oxygen hits it for a few minutes.

I may have busted a little bit of rust loose when I rotated the jet pump around 180 degrees, but I don't think it would release this much stuff. The water looks clear when you run it, but if you run it into a white plastic basin it turns orange shortly after. My toilet tanks have the classic orangish/brown slimy crud on the inside that is described as a classic symptom and they were clean just months ago.
I noticed a brown layer inside the pvc pipes that feed the house when I had to move the line over 5 feet or so and reconnected my sprinkler lines. I may have contaminated the lines then or disturbed it enough to spread the bacteria. The problem came on about 2 months afterward and with a vengeance.
I have Calcium hypochlorite pellets that will fit down inside the well. Most of the literature I have found on IRB gives advice on how much to add if you are using household chlorine bleach, so I can't figure out how much to use.
 
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blan

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I wanted to post a follow up in case anyone experiences what I have been going through. I pulled my 30 foot pvc drop pipe from my well. I then treated the well with a couple of large calcium hypochlorite pellets and reconnected the jet pump. Immediately it started to loosen the rust bacteria from the lines. Strangely, there was no orange residue inside the pvc drop pipe meaning that most of the bacteria was in the feed lines above ground. The water began to clear up nicely and there was almost no orange/brown residue getting into our tubs, toilets, etc. Now after a couple weeks, it looks like I may have to do a follow up treatment to try to destroy the IRB's. From what I have read, the IRB's create layer upon layer in the pipes so it sometimes takes multiple treatments and alot of flushing. I'm just glad I was able to figure this out because there is very little talk about it on the internet unless you stumble upon state health dept sites.
 
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Gary Slusser

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Sorry I didn't see your other replies until now. You never should use pool chlorine in a well. It is not the same 'chlorine' as used for potable water use. You also don't want 3" or other sized pucks down a well. It takes some time for them to dissolve and in the mean time, the chlorine can eat through power cable insulation and metals including a pump.

Also, repeated shocking of a well can make your IRB problem worse due to the bacteria creating slime that protects them and then it hardnes and chlorine can not penetrate it. The you use acids and caustics to 'clean' the well BUT,,,, the bacteria live in the ground and groundwater and keep coming into the well each time you use water.

The best type of treatment is my inline pellet chlorinator, a special mixing tank equal to a 120 gallon retention tank and then a special carbon filter correctly sized for your family size and the service flow rating (SFR) the house requires.
 

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I have treated many wells with such iron crud by lifting the cap a few inches and propping it up, then using liquid chlorine down the hole and a temporary pipe or hose to recirculate water down the well for a few hours, then to fill all lines with the solution and allow to set 12 hours. Repeat as needed, but lately I get about 3 years on the worst one before any sign of iron returns. By going to plain tanks or better bladder tanks, I have also reduced the blast of gunk that happens in a bad bladder tank.

I would have a much closer look at your bladder tank in this case.

I think your turning [?] of the pump was just coincidental to the issue.
 

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Anytime you let the pressure off the system, you will see minerals coming loose from the pipes. This is a normal occurance. If you have IRB on the other hand, you need to treat it like Gary recommended. I would first have the water tested, before putting deadly pool chemicals down my well. Then you will at least know what your are dealing with.

bob...
 

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Anytime you use chlorine in a well you run the risk of creating DPBs (disinfection by-products) called THMs (trihalomethanes). They are known carcinogens that a water company must limit to no more than 50 ppB(illion). If there are organics in the water, you probably will create DPBs.

Now they won't kill ya very quickly it takes years for bladder and stomach etc. cancer to show up. It's not like a head on car crash at 80 mph but... guys that don't know what they're doing in treating wells and potable water shouldn't be treating wells or potable water OR GIVING ADVICE about it. Or disagreeing with someone that does know and treats well water and has been for 20+ years. They are playing with someone's health, if it's their health, they have that right but when it's someone other than themselves, they don't have that right.

Nothing that is not approved for potable water use should be used in or around a potable water well. Pool chlorine has some potent inhibitors and other 'fillers' in it plus it isn't sodium hypochlorite (bleach). Some bleach bottles have a caution on the label, like Chlorox, to not use it for potable water treatment.

As Speedpump says, your depressurizing your water lines and allowing air into the lines causes rust to dry out and then flush out at anytime. IRB can be different and we have no idea if raucina has IRB or not, he doesn't have to, just a lot of ferrous iron works the same way as he describes.
 

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Iron Bacteria Problems

We moved into a newly built home in Jan.2007. Shortly after moving in we decided we needed a water softener. It was also determined at that time that we had both sulphur and iron in our well water, so an appropriate filter was also installed. Since then both we and the water treatment firm have been struggling to identify & eliminate the source of the bad smell. Most recently they have changed from salt to potassium in the softener, which seems to have improved but not eliminated the smell. We then started to see bits of black film in the toilet so to-day I looked inside the tank of our toilet and discovered masses of orange jelly-like stuff lining the toilet tank as well as black slime. As a result of an internet search I have identified the problem as iron bacteria ( and discovered this forum). In the most recent discussion with the water treatment people they suggested 2 different ideas to try - have the manganese rod removed from our electric hot water heater and/or a chlorine flush. One toilet that has been installed recently and had little or no use, did not have either the orange or black stuff in the tank. It did, however look like someone had poured clear mineral oil on the surface. We are desperately looking for a permanent fix for this problem as well as now worrying about this stuff clogging up all the filters and pipes, etc. Any advice or suggestions will be most appreciated. The water treatment people (who we've had excellent service from for 12 years) seem quite puzzled about how to proceed so 2nd opinions are welcome. Thanks...........LH
 

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The water in this area typically has fairly high iron content. Until one punches a hole in the earth and injects oxygen and iron bacteria from contaminated drill stems, there is no issue. See "Water Wells and Well Drilling" if you have any further questions about Iron bacteria in that regard.

I hold in my hand a gallon jug of "Chorinating liquid" its 10% sodium hypochlorite and 90% INERT ingredients, no perfume like in standard bleach. I use it and all the drillers and pump guys around here use it, no one gets sick because one TREATS a well, which means a systematic approach that fills the system and pipes for a given period and then a total flush. I would be much more afraid of a pellet drop system that on any given day might go haywire and give the family a quadruple dose of the dreaded chlorine byproducts that most folks in cities drink daily.

I agree that a few cycles of this may be required in a several week period to get a good result, and one must be careful of plugging up valves and faucets at the same time.

And most importantly, the results rely upon tact and perseverence, something which many people the pump and well world claim to have but are often woefully deficient in.

And by the way those who castigate "pool" chlorine, please give us a careful chemical analysis and description of the dreaded fillers and inhibitors within. Are these inhibitors so toxic that they are not flushed out with the long pumping after a clean out? Lets have a look at the hard and studied data.
 

Speedbump

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It sounds like you do have Iron Bacteria. Chlorinating the well would be my first attempt at fixing the problem. Sometimes chlorinating the well is only a temporary fix. Since you have had the well for 12 years, we won't blame the driller for contaminating your pipes as was suggested earlier. Chances are, your getting the bacteria from some other source. If the chlorination does not remedy the situation, the next step would be to chlorinate the water as it comes from the well with one of several methods. I prefer chlorine feed pumps. You will also need a retention tank to give the chlorine time to work before going directly into the plumbing system.

bob...
 

Gary Slusser

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Raucina said:
The water in this area typically has fairly high iron content. Until one punches a hole in the earth and injects oxygen and iron bacteria from contaminated drill stems, there is no issue. See "Water Wells and Well Drilling" if you have any further questions about Iron bacteria in that regard.
Wrong. IRB is a group of bacteria including both aerobic and anaerobic types of bacteria. They live in and on the ground, in or out of groundwater.

Do a Google or other search for "iron bacteria" and read up on it if you insist on mistakenly thinking only man contaminated wells have IRB problems.
Raucina said:
I hold in my hand a gallon jug of "Chorinating liquid" its 10% sodium hypochlorite and 90% INERT ingredients,...
Why when I was talking about not using swimming pool chlorine pucks. You can look up a manufacturer of them and call one or more asking if they support the use of their pucks in potable water wells.

You should also search for THMs or call your local water company asking to be educated on the subject and where they come from.
 

irishcatred

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First - Thank-you to those who responded to my dilemma regarding dealing with iron bacteria
Raucina said:
Until one punches a hole in the earth and injects oxygen and iron bacteria from contaminated drill stems, there is no issue.
I suppose if one were never to punch a hole in the ground there would be no well water issues at all. Sorry - couldn't resist <G>

Actually, while we have lived in this area for 12 years we have just recently moved to a rural property, so the well in question was drilled about a year ago and has been in use for just 6 months. The well-driller impressed us with his professionalism, - a treat to work with, especially when compared to the jokers we used to have to deal with on another rural property and compared to the complaints we heard from neighbours here. Eg. the best known well-driller in our present area called and left a message on our answering machine several months after we gave up trying to contact him. I guess well drillers don't have to pass a test for responsiveness or customer service! Since an Ontario community well water disaster in 2000, trades such as well drillers, water treatment people, etc. have been closely regulated and monitored, have to meet very stringent regulations re: procedures & knowledge. The well-driller is required by law to dis-infect and flush the well before signing off on the job. Perhaps this explains why the problem took a while to show up.
My web search based on what I saw inside the toilet tank led to identification of the problem. Your suggestions re: chlorination as the next step concur with the information I later found that had been given to us by the well-driller as per gov't regulations. Seems it is a pretty common problem in Ontario - not a health issue but an aesthetic one and one that can damage equipment. I can hardly wait to call the water treatment guys Mon. morning - the problem of the smell has been driving them crazy, they've been going out of their way to resolve it but, other than the odour, there was nothing in the water itself. None of us thought, 'til yesterday, to look in the toilet tank! Now we know what we're dealing with we can try the various suggestiions to correct it . Thanks so much for your help and for this forum..LH
 

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If you are going to shock a well with chlorine then you need to put in a calculated and measured amount of chlorine. The amount depends on the amount of water in the well, which depends on the diameter and the depth of water in the well.

You can use sodium hypochlorite (laundry bleach) or calcium hypochlorite (swimming pool chlorine). If you use calcium hypochlorite it should be dissolved in water before you add it to the well.

Here are 3 links to descriptions of how it is done. Read them all; then pick one and follow the instructions carefully.

You are going to pump all of the chlorinated water to waste so you don't need to worry about disinfectant byproducts from shock chlorination.

http://www.fcs.uga.edu/pubs/PDF/HACE-858-4.pdf

http://www.well-water-treatment.com/shockcl2.htm

http://www.health.state.nd.us/wq/gw/pubs/disinfec.htm
 

Gary Slusser

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I read all three links. I did not see any cautions as to any problems with DPBs or THMs or pump or power cable or water quality problems...

At one time I was approved for water treatment by the FHA/VA involving shocking of wells etc.. I have extensive hands on experience with bacteria contaminated wells and remediation and I've studied well rehabilitation. After a numbers of years, I quit shocking wells because at the very best, it is only a temporary 'fix' and causes many more problems than it cures. BUT, all government agencies and universities still suggest it for various reasons and a number of states now require it whenever a well is worked on.

But not one word of any potential problems except to by-pass or remove carbon filter cartridges..... as if that is the only equipment shocking will harm.

BobNH, what are your credentials supporting your advice?

Also, what do you support the use of calcium hypochlorite on IF it is in the 'puck' form?
 

irishcatred

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Follow-up on iron bacteria problem

So to-day our water treatment guy came and flushed our system with chlorine. They agreed that with the step by step instructions I should be able to do this myself, however I asked that they do it the first time so that if it needs to be done on a recurring basis I will have seen the actual process and have a chance to ask questions. Not that hard to do! When I posted my first question, I was looking for advice and I got it - Thank-you. I did not, however, intend to spark a debate about the different kinds of chlorine that might be used. I mentioned this apparently controversial issue to the technicion while we were waiting for the chlorine ( 5% household bleach)to work its way through the system. Here is his explanation - It mostly relates to the container rather than the actual contents. Chlorine that is labelled not for potable water is usually packaged in returnable, refillable containers with no way of knowing if someone has used that container for other substances or if the container has become contaminated by unknown substances in some way between refills. Chlorine that is labelled for use in treating potable water is sold in new containers which are then disposed of or recycled into other uses. This made a lot of sense to me as my husband & I owned a company which sold a wide variety of specialty lubricants, both petroleum based and synthetic. I never got into the technical issues but I do know that we sold products in both returnable and non-returnable drums, depending on compatability and/or risk of contamination. Since I was the person who had to keep track of deposits, returns and having the drums either re-cycled or picked up for cleaning - well, let's just say that I often wished that we used only new , non-returnables.(not good for the environment). What an accounting nightmare it was! Anyway, I'm glad to say our system has now been flushed and we'll wait and see what the future brings. At least I know what to look for now..............Liz H
 

Gary Slusser

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Liz, if I'm understanding you correctly - when we recycle bleach bottles we don't make new bleach bottles out of the old ones. They make plastic tables, chairs, garbage cans etc. out of that plastic. So your water treatment dealer is leading you astray.

Swimming pool chlorine pucks and some other types of pool chlorine have many inhibitors and active ingredients in them so the chlorine stays in the pool water instead of dissipating out of the water due to sunlight, air and demands for chlorine along with splashing aeration etc..

Anyone with a well, or concerned about the environment, should be concerned with contamination of the(ir) groundwater in their neighborhood when they get the idea of shocking THEIR well. That's why there are watershed and well head protection areas.

Using the wrong type of chlorine may not contaminate their well water but groundwater is not stationary, it moves wherever it can in all directions as fast as it can; that may be to your well when someone in the neighborhood shocks their well, or when you shock yours it may migrate to the neighbors' wells.

Although I can not recall the specific problems, or find the article on my computer, using swimming pool chlorines that are not sodium hypochlorite solely can be dangerous to humans and animals.
 
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Rancher

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Gary Slusser said:
Although I can not recall the specific problems, or find the article on my computer, using swimming pool chlorines that are not sodium hypochlorite solely can be dangerous to humans and animals.
So you're saying all the pool water that I drank as a kid will hurt me? I think not... the reason you use liquid bleach as opposed to calcium hypochlorite or solid puck pool chlorine is because the pool chlorine is mixed with slaked lime or other ingredients to slow it's dissolving time, what you want in a well is the fastest shock treatment you can find, pool chlorine actually has more available chlorine than sodium hypochlorite.

Rancher
 
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