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Thread: Made a mistake...wrong cement

  1. #46

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    Thanks Terry!!

    That's what we are here for right....great advice for DIYers and fun for you experienced plumbers!


    Quote Originally Posted by Terry
    Since you called and talked to the rep, and they said it would work, well, then the rest is just fun for us.

    I've used muti-purpose before, and it did work.
    If the glue company says it works, then I'm thinking we just haven't had another thread that allowed this much comment for a while.

  2. #47
    DIY scratch-pad engineer leejosepho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumpyPlumber
    ABS cement is one step, as is CPVC...PVC uses primer and then cement.
    CPVC is not one-step as far as I know. In fact, I have heard it is supposed to be a three-step process:

    1) Cleaner;
    2) Primer;
    3) Cement.

    As I have heard it, the story here is that too many "plumbers" in whatever categories that were accustomed to one-step ABS were not using cleaner on PVC or CPVC ... and after pressure systems began coming apart for lack of proper cleaning prior to assembly, a dye was added to make cleaner into a so-called "primer" an inspector could verify had been used ... and the manufacturers seem to be allowing people to believe both cleaner and "primer" must be used to get a lasting connection!
    Last edited by leejosepho; 08-01-2007 at 02:02 PM.

  3. #48
    Licensed Grump GrumpyPlumber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leejosepho
    CPVC is not one-step as far as I know. In fact, I have heard it is supposed to be a three-step process:

    1) Cleaner;
    2) Primer;
    3) Cement.

    As I have heard it, the story here is that too many "plumbers" in whatever categories that were accustomed to one-step ABS were not using cleaner on PVC or CPVC ... and after pressure systems began coming apart for lack of proper cleaning prior to assembly, a dye was added to make cleaner into a so-called "primer" an inspector could verify had been used ... and the manufacturers seem to be allowing people to believe both cleaner and "primer" must be used to get a lasting connection!
    Joe, look up "Flowguard Gold"...I think you're confusing PVC and CPVC.
    Here's a copy of the instructions for gluing, along with a link below to the page, granted "all purpose" approved by ASTM is ok...NOT PVC or ABS glue. :
    "4. Solvent Cement Application
    USE ONLY CPVC CEMENT OR AN ALL-PURPOSE CEMENT CONFORMING TO ASTM F-493 OR JOINT FAILURE MAY RESULT. As a result of extensive testing, Lubrizol recommends the application of FlowGuard GoldŽ One Step Cement on 1/2"-2" CTS tubing as the technically preferred method. However, if required by local code, primer, when properly applied, will have no negative effect on FlowGuard GoldŽ CPVC joint integrity. When making a joint, apply a heavy, even coat of cement to the pipe end. Use the same applicator without additional cement to apply a thin coat inside the fitting socket. Too much cement can cause clogged waterways. DO NOT ALLOW EXCESS CEMENT TO PUDDLE IN THE FITTING AND PIPE ASSEMBLY AS THIS MAY LEAD TO PREMATURE FAILURE.
    "
    http://www.flowguardgold.com/designI...on/joining.asp
    "The biggest regrets we have in life are the chances we never took."

  4. #49
    Sprinkler Guy Wet_Boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry
    Years ago, I was plumbing a home with Oatey All-Purpose Glue. It worked for both ABS and PVC. It was a milky white color.

    After working a few hours, My stomach felt like it was going to burst.
    I lay down on the plywood floor for a bit till I felt better.

    When I went back to the shop, I told the other plumbers I would never use that stuff again. One of the guys laughed and called me a baby and grabbed a can to throw in this truck.

    The next day I saw him, and he was swearing he'd never use the stuff again. Hmmm....... Okay.
    I never did figure out if it was a bad batch, or if that is how it was supposed by be. Never even tried it again.

    I like the Oaty ABS glue that is black with the blue label.

    And I don't seem to have a problem with the PVC glue they make either.
    So why do we use this stuff?
    I use Oatey red label glue for the small amount of sch 40 pressure plumbing I do, since it seems to set up quickly, while staying workable. Most of the fast-setting blue glue used in irrigation isn't as user-friendly. I first bought the red label stuff because I occasionally used to see irrigation piping of ABS tubing (CTS size) ~ I had a small supply of ABS fittings for them, and didn't want to carry extra cans of glue I might only open and use one time.

    I'm only using the stuff outdoors, so any differences between the glues' vapors, I haven't noticed.

  5. #50
    DIY scratch-pad engineer leejosepho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumpyPlumber
    Joe, look up "Flowguard Gold"...I think you're confusing PVC and CPVC ...

    "... Lubrizol recommends the application of FlowGuard GoldŽ One Step Cement ...
    "However, if required by local code, primer ..."
    No, no confusion here, and even "Lubrizol" recognizes the fact that the purple primer is occasionally or situationally required for visible proof that the CPVC pipe has been made ready for cementing.

  6. #51
    DIY Senior Member abikerboy's Avatar
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    Dont think Id take the chance. My own story, lateral from my septic is 4" pvc, tied into a 4 way homemade looking pvc tee under my house (some past-rigged repair, and not done by me either). Glued into one side of that tee was a small black abs pipe from the shower, and a large abs pipe at the top from the toilet. It held together for years, but one day I had to go under the house, and discovered it wasnt holding anymore. The front bath toilet and shower had been flushing into the crawlspace for god knows how long. The large pipe from the toilet let go, and when the whole contraption dropped a couple of inches, the abs line from the shower pulled out as well. The other pipe, which was pvc, and was glued correctly held fast. I know its a little diff situation from what youre in, but for me, I'd rather have the right glue for the right material than to ever have to clean up that kind of mess again.
    Last edited by abikerboy; 08-03-2007 at 04:43 AM.

  7. #52

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    For all you know, they could have used "Elmers Glue" on that joint.

    You had a bad situation, (homemade tee, rigged repair, etc.,) but it is definitely irrelevant to this discussion.

    We're talking about 2 products that are exactly the same, but have different names.

  8. #53

    Default Not loosing sleep anymore....

    ....so thanks to all contributors to this thread!!!

    Some might call me a chicken, but most of you guys will probably say I did the right thing. I had to replace the old iron shower-tub drain, so I figured, while I'm at it....I replaced the whole drain and used the CORRECT ABS GLUE....took me a couple of hours and cost of few dollars, but now it will hold until way past my time.
    Ironically though...the bath tub doesn't drain as quickly as it did before...

    By the way, I hate the construction of the overflow drain stopper. For some reason if it shuts completely in the "closed" position, it doesn't open all the way, which leads to poor drainage. If I adjust it so that the flow is better in the "open" position, it doesn't shut completely in the closed position.
    First I thought there was something wrong with the old construction, but when I replaced it the same thing happens....
    So now I don't have to worry about leaks...but the drainage is poor...
    Thanks for everyone's participation!

    PS. I'm keeping the laundry sink with the "wrong" cement to see if any leaks will appear...the pipes are and will always be exposed so leaks will be easily detected. DS.

  9. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by froddan
    ....most of you guys will probably say I did the right thing. I replaced the whole drain and used the CORRECT ABS GLUE....
    Thanks for everyone's participation. PS. I'm keeping the laundry sink with the "wrong" cement to see if any leaks will appear DS.
    You'd make a great politician...finding a way to appease everyone.

    BTW, they make different styles of drain plungers. You may need to buy a different type that adjusts properly.

  10. #55
    DIY scratch-pad engineer leejosepho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdeboy
    BTW, they make different styles of drain plungers. You may need to buy a different type that adjusts properly.
    Yes, and what is needed is more travel, and that would come from a different actuator that has a longer lever/arm behind the pivot point.

  11. #56
    Licensed Grump GrumpyPlumber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdeboy
    For all you know, they could have used "Elmers Glue" on that joint.

    You had a bad situation, (homemade tee, rigged repair, etc.,) but it is definitely irrelevant to this discussion.

    We're talking about 2 products that are exactly the same, but have different names.

    He said he was talking about gluing PVC and ABS.
    The topics header reads "Made a mistake...wrong cement " and was in regard to using PVC cement on ABS.

    One is PolyVinylChloride...the other is Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene.
    The solvents do have similar compounds, but thats where the similarities end...NO plumber I know doesn't know this...it's ingrained from school on that they're different..completely.
    If You have a problem with that, take it up with the chemistry industry, the plumbing industry...and molecular physics.
    This topic is very basic info for any plumber.
    The BIGGEST difference in physical properties from ABS to PVC is the temperature expansion ratio...PVC would quickly detach from ABS due to it's high expansion rate when heated.
    Although there are solvents that might be compatible with both, it still wouldn't account for the expansion inside the hub from one type to the other.
    If you have been using ABS glue/pipe with PVC, or vise versa...I'd like to thank you on behalf of the plumbing industry...for all the future work.
    "The biggest regrets we have in life are the chances we never took."

  12. #57
    DIY Senior Member abikerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdeboy
    You had a bad situation, (homemade tee, rigged repair, etc.,) but it is definitely irrelevant to this discussion.

    We're talking about 2 products that are exactly the same, but have different names.
    Sorry about that interjection. Didnt know that abs and pvc were the same material. Was just stating what the plumber said caused the failure. Was told that the glue would be right for either the abs or the pvc, not for both, and that the "wrong" material would end up not bonding.
    Last edited by abikerboy; 08-03-2007 at 02:58 PM.

  13. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumpyPlumber

    He said he was talking about gluing PVC and ABS.
    The topics header reads "Made a mistake...wrong cement " and was in regard to using PVC cement on ABS.

    One is PolyVinylChloride...the other is Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene.
    The solvents do have similar compounds, but thats where the similarities end...NO plumber I know doesn't know this...it's ingrained from school on that they're different..completely.
    If You have a problem with that, take it up with the chemistry industry, the plumbing industry...and molecular physics.
    This topic is very basic info for any plumber.
    The BIGGEST difference in physical properties from ABS to PVC is the temperature expansion ratio...PVC would quickly detach from ABS due to it's high expansion rate when heated.
    Although there are solvents that might be compatible with both, it still wouldn't account for the expansion inside the hub from one type to the other.
    If you have been using ABS glue/pipe with PVC, or vise versa...I'd like to thank you on behalf of the plumbing industry...for all the future work.
    As Ronald Reagan used to say, "Well, there you go again."

    We all know that PVC, CPVC, and ABS are different materials and thus have different properties. The plumbing industry makes a cement that is "All Purpose" --can be used on all of the above--but is identical in every way to the CPVC cement. That is a fact. So, what are we still arguing about?

  14. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by abikerboy
    Sorry about that interjection. Didnt know that abs and pvc were the same material. Was just stating what the plumber said caused the failure. Was told that the glue would be right for either the abs or the pvc, not for both, and that the "wrong" material would end up not bonding.
    I was referring to the CPVC cement and the "All Purpose" cement, not PVC and ABS.

  15. #60
    Licensed Grump GrumpyPlumber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdeboy
    For all you know, they could have used "Elmers Glue" on that joint.

    You had a bad situation, (homemade tee, rigged repair, etc.,) but it is definitely irrelevant to this discussion.

    We're talking about 2 products that are exactly the same, but have different names.
    It looked like you were referring to the pipes in his tee scenario.
    It's ok to debate issues, another word for it would be an "exchange" of idea's.
    Also...CPVC glue and "all purpose" aren't the same, but maybe there are some mfg's that are, but I'm not about to use CPVC glue on PVC or ABS...this is one reason why plumbing boards "stick their noses" into approving products.
    Left unwatched, mfg's would be pawning Elmers glue titled "all purpose" for steele gas pipe to anyone willing to buy it. (I have questions about certain "bonding agents" for concrete applications)
    Then it goes to the opposite extreme to where we have glues for irrigation, sprinkler, CPVC, PVC, ABS, hot weather, cold weather...list goes on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Verdeboy
    The resin that is considered to be good enough for all these systems, including ABS, is CPVC resin. If you have a problem with that, why don't you go to the plumbing authorities to try to get the all purpose stuff banned.
    According to ASTM F493, it's not me with the problem, in fact...that is "the plumbing authority".
    "The biggest regrets we have in life are the chances we never took."

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