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Thread: Made a mistake...wrong cement

  1. #31
    DIY Junior Member Buckeyetech's Avatar
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    I had to redo an ABS drain job that was leaking in 6 or 8 fittings that we were 99% certain was glued with the wrong glue. The homeowner had extra ABS pipe and fittings along with a couple of partial cans of both CPVC and PVC glue. The woman thought her now deceased husband had done it right after the turn of the century. So that makes it about seven years old..and a lot of drain water in a basement.

    Go Bucks

  2. #32
    One who lurks Basement_Lurker's Avatar
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    Terry's little stories always put a smile on my face.

  3. #33
    DIY Junior Member jimi's Avatar
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    Instead of pulling the pipe apart and redo it all.
    Is that a possibility to wrap something around the joints for enforcement, call it a damage control.

    just my Zen thinking ........

  4. #34
    DIY Senior Member molo's Avatar
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    Labeling and Marketing has caused GE to label the very sam product (100% silicone sealant with biocide) as two different products. "Window and Door" and "Kitchen and Bath". They are the same product.
    "Any American who is prepared to run for President should automatically, by definition, be disqualified from ever doing so."
    Gore Vidal.

  5. #35

    Default Company's Rep

    David & others,

    It wasn't exactly tech support I spoke and emailed with - but we did exchange a few stories. Let's say it was someone at a high level in the corporation.

    However, I am currently replacing the parts where I wasn't 100% happy with the connections anyway, so we'll see if my fittings will last for 7 years or less.

    Marketing and Labeling is often very good at turning one product into several...

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumpyPlumber
    ABS solvent:
    "Ingredient: ACRYLONITRILE BUTADIENE STYRENE RESIN
    Ingredient Sequence Number: 01
    Percent: 25-35
    NIOSH (RTECS) Number: AT6970000
    CAS Number: 9003-56-9
    -------------------------------------
    Proprietary: NO
    Ingredient: 2-BUTANONE (METHYL ETHYL KETONE) (MEK)
    "
    NOT a chemist, but seems there are a couple other things in there too.
    I say just use Elmers...heck why not?
    To say that I am recommending anything even remotely close to Elmers glue is ridiculous and fatuous.

    Yes, ABS cement has different ingredients than PVC cement, which has different ingredients than CPVC cement. There's no disagreement there. But if you look at the formula for the all purpose cement--at least the one I have--the formula is exactly the same as the CPVC cement.

    In mathematics if A=B and B=C then A=C.

    A=CPVC Formula
    B=All Purpose Formula
    C=ABS Formula

    And yes, plumber's, like everyone else on this or any forum, can be mistaken.
    It's up to the thread-starter to pick and choose from the advice given.

  7. #37
    Plumber BAPlumber's Avatar
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    Most plumbers and home owners are bound by a legal document called the plumbing code. This code is adopted, as law, by many states. I'll quote part of the 2000 Uniform Plumbing Code.

    "310.4 Installation Practices. Plumbing systems shall be installed in a manner conforming the this Code, applicable standards and the manufacturer's installation instructions. In instances where the Code, applicable standards or the manufacturer's instructions conflict, the more stringent provisions shall prevail."

    I take this to mean that the "more stringent provision" is ABS cement is to be used on ABS pipe, PVC on PVC, etc. Multi-Purpose cement which is listed for PVC and ABS, for the same. Listed Transition cements to join ABS to PVC.

    Just because a chemist says it is okay to mix cements and materials doesn't mean it's legal or an accepted building practice.
    Brent

  8. #38
    Master Plumber master plumber mark's Avatar
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    Talking bound by the code?

    Quote Originally Posted by BAPlumber
    Most plumbers and home owners are bound by a legal document called the plumbing code.

    Just because a chemist says it is okay to mix cements and materials doesn't mean it's legal or an accepted building practice.
    that sounds real good and al that,
    but if that were really the case---

    this fellow should not even have been allowed to go to a hardware store and do his own plumbing job in the first
    place.....

    or be able to buy water heaters and install them himself , ect ect......

    but you and I know that they are not going to close
    HD down anytmie soon for breaking the code.





  9. #39
    Plumber BAPlumber's Avatar
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    Some states allow a home owner to do their own plumbing as long as they pull a permit. Some states only allow a licensed plumber to do the work. Some don't care one way or the other and haven't adopted a code. I don't recall what state this thread came from. I know my local HD sell fittings and other products that would be deemed illegal in probably every state with a code.
    Brent

  10. #40
    Plumber Cass's Avatar
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    I don't know of any state that won't sell plumbing parts any plumber can buy to home owners also.

  11. #41
    Moderator & Master Plumber hj's Avatar
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    Default cement

    It seems your Home Depot guy knew what he was talking about.

    Then it may be one of the first times.

    The CPVC resin works on ABS, PVC, and CPVC systems.
    ANYTHING will fill the void between the pipe and the fitting and friction will keep it in place for a long time. But eventually things will dry out and deteriorate. Then the pipes will come loose and leak. Lots of things have similar ingredients, but the "additives" is what makes layer cakes different.
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  12. #42
    Licensed Grump GrumpyPlumber's Avatar
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    ABS cement is one step, as is CPVC...PVC uses primer and then cement.
    The solvents are made to actually melt into the pipe itself...literally welding it together as one piece of the same material, having the same properties.
    I'll say it again...any glue will hold it together, but only the right glue will give it a "solvent weld".
    Think of it this way...if the ABS were "solvent welded" it would be ABS all the way through from pipe to fitting, if it's glued with pvc glue it's another type of material in between...one of the PRIMARY differences between ABS and PVC is the expansion/contraction...PVC exands at 3/8" per ten foot length per 100 degree increase while ABS does not.
    Every time the 120-130 degree hot water is run through that drain, the "glue" inside the joints will expand at a different rate than the pipe/fittings. GOOD LUCK!

    I've gone to many a home depot and asked for fittings, parts or chemicals that they were sold out of or didn't stock...the "plumbing guy" has made suggestions that in some cases were ludicrous, even dangerous...him not knowing I'm a plumber.
    I think it was Cass who was kind enough to express the fact that it can get VERY frustrating hearing the same things over and over about a month ago regarding my "grumpy" approach here...I toned it down...but I can honestly say this is getting frustrating....how many times can you keep trying to re-ask the questions hoping you'll get the answer you want?
    I understand this is a DIY site..so, by all means, have at it.
    "The biggest regrets we have in life are the chances we never took."

  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumpyPlumber
    ABS cement is one step, as is CPVC...PVC uses primer and then cement.
    The solvents are made to actually melt into the pipe itself...literally welding it together as one piece of the same material, having the same properties.
    I'll say it again...any glue will hold it together, but only the right glue will give it a "solvent weld".
    Think of it this way...if the ABS were "solvent welded" it would be ABS all the way through from pipe to fitting, if it's glued with pvc glue it's another type of material in between...one of the PRIMARY differences between ABS and PVC is the expansion/contraction...PVC exands at 3/8" per ten foot length per 100 degree increase while ABS does not.
    Every time the 120-130 degree hot water is run through that drain, the "glue" inside the joints will expand at a different rate than the pipe/fittings. GOOD LUCK!

    I've gone to many a home depot and asked for fittings, parts or chemicals that they were sold out of or didn't stock...the "plumbing guy" has made suggestions that in some cases were ludicrous, even dangerous...him not knowing I'm a plumber.
    I think it was Cass who was kind enough to express the fact that it can get VERY frustrating hearing the same things over and over about a month ago regarding my "grumpy" approach here...I toned it down...but I can honestly say this is getting frustrating....how many times can you keep trying to re-ask the questions hoping you'll get the answer you want?
    I understand this is a DIY site..so, by all means, have at it.
    "Solvent weld" means just that. The solvent dissolves part of the material, and the void is filled by a resin. The solvent in the "All Purpose Cement" is the exact same solvent as in the CPVC and PVC products. The resin that is considered to be good enough for all these systems, including ABS, is CPVC resin. If you have a problem with that, why don't you go to the plumbing authorities to try to get the all purpose stuff banned.

  14. #44

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    I certainly didn't expect this many responses when I started this thread, but I appreciate it...
    I'm in WA state, and although I think that is irrelevant, I'm sure there are certain codes for installing the drain pipes and which cement to use.

    I'm a diy...but I'm not stupid. I would never mess with gas lines, or water heaters. But a 1 1/2" drain pipe and vent...I think I can replace that, and worst case scenario seems to be leaks and a messed up ceiling drywall.

    I can't wait to read about the outcome the day HD gets sued out of business by someone who incorrectly installed a drain...

    So Grumpy, you say:

    Quote Originally Posted by GrumpyPlumber
    PRIMARY differences between ABS and PVC is the expansion/contraction...PVC exands at 3/8" per ten foot length per 100 degree increase while ABS does not.
    Every time the 120-130 degree hot water is run through that drain, the "glue" inside the joints will expand at a different rate than the pipe/fittings. GOOD LUCK!
    I used glue/cement for CPVC on my ABS pipes. So technically my ABS pipes won't expand, but PVC glue would. If I keep a room temperature of about 70 degrees (these are inside pipes) and the coldest water I could run is probably around 40 something degrees...and the hottest in the tap is about 120 degrees, so the maximum difference is 80 degrees in the pipes (counting high). I assume that you are insinuating that PVC glue would expand and contract a bit. It would be interesting to hear what CPVC cement does...

    I hate to be the devils advocate...and I'm sure you know tons about plumbing, but I believe that sometimes it is essential to question some of the recommendations we get.

  15. #45
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    Since you called and talked to the rep, and they said it would work, well, then the rest is just fun for us.

    I've used muti-purpose before, and it did work.
    If the glue company says it works, then I'm thinking we just haven't had another thread that allowed this much comment for a while.

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