Made a mistake...wrong ABS cement

Users who are viewing this thread

hj

Master Plumber
Messages
33,602
Reaction score
1,040
Points
113
Location
Cave Creek, Arizona
Website
www.terrylove.com
cement

It seems your Home Depot guy knew what he was talking about.

Then it may be one of the first times.

The CPVC resin works on ABS, PVC, and CPVC systems.
ANYTHING will fill the void between the pipe and the fitting and friction will keep it in place for a long time. But eventually things will dry out and deteriorate. Then the pipes will come loose and leak. Lots of things have similar ingredients, but the "additives" is what makes layer cakes different.
__________________
 

GrumpyPlumber

Licensed Grump
Messages
1,521
Reaction score
57
Points
48
Location
Licensed Grump
ABS cement is one step, as is CPVC...PVC uses primer and then cement.
The solvents are made to actually melt into the pipe itself...literally welding it together as one piece of the same material, having the same properties.
I'll say it again...any glue will hold it together, but only the right glue will give it a "solvent weld".
Think of it this way...if the ABS were "solvent welded" it would be ABS all the way through from pipe to fitting, if it's glued with pvc glue it's another type of material in between...one of the PRIMARY differences between ABS and PVC is the expansion/contraction...PVC exands at 3/8" per ten foot length per 100 degree increase while ABS does not.
Every time the 120-130 degree hot water is run through that drain, the "glue" inside the joints will expand at a different rate than the pipe/fittings. GOOD LUCK!

I've gone to many a home depot and asked for fittings, parts or chemicals that they were sold out of or didn't stock...the "plumbing guy" has made suggestions that in some cases were ludicrous, even dangerous...him not knowing I'm a plumber.
I think it was Cass who was kind enough to express the fact that it can get VERY frustrating hearing the same things over and over about a month ago regarding my "grumpy" approach here...I toned it down...but I can honestly say this is getting frustrating....how many times can you keep trying to re-ask the questions hoping you'll get the answer you want?
I understand this is a DIY site..so, by all means, have at it.
 

Verdeboy

In the Trades
Messages
2,041
Reaction score
6
Points
0
GrumpyPlumber said:
ABS cement is one step, as is CPVC...PVC uses primer and then cement.
The solvents are made to actually melt into the pipe itself...literally welding it together as one piece of the same material, having the same properties.
I'll say it again...any glue will hold it together, but only the right glue will give it a "solvent weld".
Think of it this way...if the ABS were "solvent welded" it would be ABS all the way through from pipe to fitting, if it's glued with pvc glue it's another type of material in between...one of the PRIMARY differences between ABS and PVC is the expansion/contraction...PVC exands at 3/8" per ten foot length per 100 degree increase while ABS does not.
Every time the 120-130 degree hot water is run through that drain, the "glue" inside the joints will expand at a different rate than the pipe/fittings. GOOD LUCK!

I've gone to many a home depot and asked for fittings, parts or chemicals that they were sold out of or didn't stock...the "plumbing guy" has made suggestions that in some cases were ludicrous, even dangerous...him not knowing I'm a plumber.
I think it was Cass who was kind enough to express the fact that it can get VERY frustrating hearing the same things over and over about a month ago regarding my "grumpy" approach here...I toned it down...but I can honestly say this is getting frustrating....how many times can you keep trying to re-ask the questions hoping you'll get the answer you want?
I understand this is a DIY site..so, by all means, have at it.

"Solvent weld" means just that. The solvent dissolves part of the material, and the void is filled by a resin. The solvent in the "All Purpose Cement" is the exact same solvent as in the CPVC and PVC products. The resin that is considered to be good enough for all these systems, including ABS, is CPVC resin. If you have a problem with that, why don't you go to the plumbing authorities to try to get the all purpose stuff banned. :)
 

froddan

New Member
Messages
52
Reaction score
0
Points
0
I certainly didn't expect this many responses when I started this thread, but I appreciate it...
I'm in WA state, and although I think that is irrelevant, I'm sure there are certain codes for installing the drain pipes and which cement to use.

I'm a diy...but I'm not stupid. I would never mess with gas lines, or water heaters. But a 1 1/2" drain pipe and vent...I think I can replace that, and worst case scenario seems to be leaks and a messed up ceiling drywall.

I can't wait to read about the outcome the day HD gets sued out of business by someone who incorrectly installed a drain...

So Grumpy, you say:

GrumpyPlumber said:
PRIMARY differences between ABS and PVC is the expansion/contraction...PVC exands at 3/8" per ten foot length per 100 degree increase while ABS does not.
Every time the 120-130 degree hot water is run through that drain, the "glue" inside the joints will expand at a different rate than the pipe/fittings. GOOD LUCK!

I used glue/cement for CPVC on my ABS pipes. So technically my ABS pipes won't expand, but PVC glue would. If I keep a room temperature of about 70 degrees (these are inside pipes) and the coldest water I could run is probably around 40 something degrees...and the hottest in the tap is about 120 degrees, so the maximum difference is 80 degrees in the pipes (counting high). I assume that you are insinuating that PVC glue would expand and contract a bit. It would be interesting to hear what CPVC cement does...

I hate to be the devils advocate...and I'm sure you know tons about plumbing, but I believe that sometimes it is essential to question some of the recommendations we get.
 

Terry

The Plumbing Wizard
Staff member
Messages
29,942
Reaction score
3,458
Points
113
Location
Bothell, Washington
Website
terrylove.com
Since you called and talked to the rep, and they said it would work, well, then the rest is just fun for us.

I've used muti-purpose before, and it did work.
If the glue company says it works, then I'm thinking we just haven't had another thread that allowed this much comment for a while.
 

froddan

New Member
Messages
52
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Thanks Terry!!

That's what we are here for right....great advice for DIYers and fun for you experienced plumbers!

:) :) :)
Terry said:
Since you called and talked to the rep, and they said it would work, well, then the rest is just fun for us.

I've used muti-purpose before, and it did work.
If the glue company says it works, then I'm thinking we just haven't had another thread that allowed this much comment for a while.
 

Leejosepho

DIY scratch-pad engineer
Messages
2,483
Reaction score
0
Points
36
Location
200 miles south of Little Rock
Website
www.nonameyet.org
GrumpyPlumber said:
ABS cement is one step, as is CPVC...PVC uses primer and then cement.

CPVC is not one-step as far as I know. In fact, I have heard it is supposed to be a three-step process:

1) Cleaner;
2) Primer;
3) Cement.

As I have heard it, the story here is that too many "plumbers" in whatever categories that were accustomed to one-step ABS were not using cleaner on PVC or CPVC ... and after pressure systems began coming apart for lack of proper cleaning prior to assembly, a dye was added to make cleaner into a so-called "primer" an inspector could verify had been used ... and the manufacturers seem to be allowing people to believe both cleaner and "primer" must be used to get a lasting connection!
 
Last edited:

GrumpyPlumber

Licensed Grump
Messages
1,521
Reaction score
57
Points
48
Location
Licensed Grump
leejosepho said:
CPVC is not one-step as far as I know. In fact, I have heard it is supposed to be a three-step process:

1) Cleaner;
2) Primer;
3) Cement.

As I have heard it, the story here is that too many "plumbers" in whatever categories that were accustomed to one-step ABS were not using cleaner on PVC or CPVC ... and after pressure systems began coming apart for lack of proper cleaning prior to assembly, a dye was added to make cleaner into a so-called "primer" an inspector could verify had been used ... and the manufacturers seem to be allowing people to believe both cleaner and "primer" must be used to get a lasting connection!

Joe, look up "Flowguard Gold"...I think you're confusing PVC and CPVC.
Here's a copy of the instructions for gluing, along with a link below to the page, granted "all purpose" approved by ASTM is ok...NOT PVC or ABS glue. :
"4. Solvent Cement Application
USE ONLY CPVC CEMENT OR AN ALL-PURPOSE CEMENT CONFORMING TO ASTM F-493 OR JOINT FAILURE MAY RESULT. As a result of extensive testing, Lubrizol recommends the application of FlowGuard Gold® One Step Cement on 1/2"-2" CTS tubing as the technically preferred method. However, if required by local code, primer, when properly applied, will have no negative effect on FlowGuard Gold® CPVC joint integrity. When making a joint, apply a heavy, even coat of cement to the pipe end. Use the same applicator without additional cement to apply a thin coat inside the fitting socket. Too much cement can cause clogged waterways. DO NOT ALLOW EXCESS CEMENT TO PUDDLE IN THE FITTING AND PIPE ASSEMBLY AS THIS MAY LEAD TO PREMATURE FAILURE.
"
http://www.flowguardgold.com/designInstallation/joining.asp
 

Wet_Boots

Sprinkler Guy
Messages
799
Reaction score
2
Points
16
Location
Metro NYC
Terry said:
Years ago, I was plumbing a home with Oatey All-Purpose Glue. It worked for both ABS and PVC. It was a milky white color.

After working a few hours, My stomach felt like it was going to burst.
I lay down on the plywood floor for a bit till I felt better.

When I went back to the shop, I told the other plumbers I would never use that stuff again. One of the guys laughed and called me a baby and grabbed a can to throw in this truck.

The next day I saw him, and he was swearing he'd never use the stuff again. Hmmm....... Okay.
I never did figure out if it was a bad batch, or if that is how it was supposed by be. Never even tried it again.

I like the Oaty ABS glue that is black with the blue label.

And I don't seem to have a problem with the PVC glue they make either.
So why do we use this stuff?
I use Oatey red label glue for the small amount of sch 40 pressure plumbing I do, since it seems to set up quickly, while staying workable. Most of the fast-setting blue glue used in irrigation isn't as user-friendly. I first bought the red label stuff because I occasionally used to see irrigation piping of ABS tubing (CTS size) ~ I had a small supply of ABS fittings for them, and didn't want to carry extra cans of glue I might only open and use one time.

I'm only using the stuff outdoors, so any differences between the glues' vapors, I haven't noticed.
 

Leejosepho

DIY scratch-pad engineer
Messages
2,483
Reaction score
0
Points
36
Location
200 miles south of Little Rock
Website
www.nonameyet.org
GrumpyPlumber said:
Joe, look up "Flowguard Gold"...I think you're confusing PVC and CPVC ...

"... Lubrizol recommends the application of FlowGuard Gold® One Step Cement ...
"However, if required by local code, primer ..."

No, no confusion here, and even "Lubrizol" recognizes the fact that the purple primer is occasionally or situationally required for visible proof that the CPVC pipe has been made ready for cementing.
 

Abikerboy

DIY Senior Member
Messages
202
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
VA
Dont think Id take the chance. My own story, lateral from my septic is 4" pvc, tied into a 4 way homemade looking pvc tee under my house (some past-rigged repair, and not done by me either). Glued into one side of that tee was a small black abs pipe from the shower, and a large abs pipe at the top from the toilet. It held together for years, but one day I had to go under the house, and discovered it wasnt holding anymore. The front bath toilet and shower had been flushing into the crawlspace for god knows how long. The large pipe from the toilet let go, and when the whole contraption dropped a couple of inches, the abs line from the shower pulled out as well. The other pipe, which was pvc, and was glued correctly held fast. I know its a little diff situation from what youre in, but for me, I'd rather have the right glue for the right material than to ever have to clean up that kind of mess again.
 
Last edited:

Verdeboy

In the Trades
Messages
2,041
Reaction score
6
Points
0
For all you know, they could have used "Elmers Glue" on that joint.:D

You had a bad situation, (homemade tee, rigged repair, etc.,) but it is definitely irrelevant to this discussion.

We're talking about 2 products that are exactly the same, but have different names.
 

froddan

New Member
Messages
52
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Not loosing sleep anymore....

....so thanks to all contributors to this thread!!!

Some might call me a chicken, but most of you guys will probably say I did the right thing. I had to replace the old iron shower-tub drain, so I figured, while I'm at it....I replaced the whole drain and used the CORRECT ABS GLUE....took me a couple of hours and cost of few dollars, but now it will hold until way past my time.
Ironically though...the bath tub doesn't drain as quickly as it did before...

By the way, I hate the construction of the overflow drain stopper. For some reason if it shuts completely in the "closed" position, it doesn't open all the way, which leads to poor drainage. If I adjust it so that the flow is better in the "open" position, it doesn't shut completely in the closed position.
First I thought there was something wrong with the old construction, but when I replaced it the same thing happens....
So now I don't have to worry about leaks...but the drainage is poor...:)
Thanks for everyone's participation!

PS. I'm keeping the laundry sink with the "wrong" cement to see if any leaks will appear...the pipes are and will always be exposed so leaks will be easily detected. DS.
 

Verdeboy

In the Trades
Messages
2,041
Reaction score
6
Points
0
froddan said:
....most of you guys will probably say I did the right thing. I replaced the whole drain and used the CORRECT ABS GLUE....
Thanks for everyone's participation. PS. I'm keeping the laundry sink with the "wrong" cement to see if any leaks will appear DS.

You'd make a great politician...finding a way to appease everyone.:D

BTW, they make different styles of drain plungers. You may need to buy a different type that adjusts properly.
 

GrumpyPlumber

Licensed Grump
Messages
1,521
Reaction score
57
Points
48
Location
Licensed Grump
Verdeboy said:
For all you know, they could have used "Elmers Glue" on that joint.:D

You had a bad situation, (homemade tee, rigged repair, etc.,) but it is definitely irrelevant to this discussion.

We're talking about 2 products that are exactly the same, but have different names.

He said he was talking about gluing PVC and ABS.
The topics header reads "Made a mistake...wrong cement " and was in regard to using PVC cement on ABS.

One is PolyVinylChloride...the other is Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene.
The solvents do have similar compounds, but thats where the similarities end...NO plumber I know doesn't know this...it's ingrained from school on that they're different..completely.
If You have a problem with that, take it up with the chemistry industry, the plumbing industry...and molecular physics.
This topic is very basic info for any plumber.
The BIGGEST difference in physical properties from ABS to PVC is the temperature expansion ratio...PVC would quickly detach from ABS due to it's high expansion rate when heated.
Although there are solvents that might be compatible with both, it still wouldn't account for the expansion inside the hub from one type to the other.
If you have been using ABS glue/pipe with PVC, or vise versa...I'd like to thank you on behalf of the plumbing industry...for all the future work.
 

Abikerboy

DIY Senior Member
Messages
202
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Location
VA
Verdeboy said:
You had a bad situation, (homemade tee, rigged repair, etc.,) but it is definitely irrelevant to this discussion.

We're talking about 2 products that are exactly the same, but have different names.
Sorry about that interjection. Didnt know that abs and pvc were the same material. Was just stating what the plumber said caused the failure. Was told that the glue would be right for either the abs or the pvc, not for both, and that the "wrong" material would end up not bonding.
 
Last edited:

Verdeboy

In the Trades
Messages
2,041
Reaction score
6
Points
0
GrumpyPlumber said:

He said he was talking about gluing PVC and ABS.
The topics header reads "Made a mistake...wrong cement " and was in regard to using PVC cement on ABS.

One is PolyVinylChloride...the other is Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene.
The solvents do have similar compounds, but thats where the similarities end...NO plumber I know doesn't know this...it's ingrained from school on that they're different..completely.
If You have a problem with that, take it up with the chemistry industry, the plumbing industry...and molecular physics.
This topic is very basic info for any plumber.
The BIGGEST difference in physical properties from ABS to PVC is the temperature expansion ratio...PVC would quickly detach from ABS due to it's high expansion rate when heated.
Although there are solvents that might be compatible with both, it still wouldn't account for the expansion inside the hub from one type to the other.
If you have been using ABS glue/pipe with PVC, or vise versa...I'd like to thank you on behalf of the plumbing industry...for all the future work.
As Ronald Reagan used to say, "Well, there you go again."

We all know that PVC, CPVC, and ABS are different materials and thus have different properties. The plumbing industry makes a cement that is "All Purpose" --can be used on all of the above--but is identical in every way to the CPVC cement. That is a fact. So, what are we still arguing about?
 

Verdeboy

In the Trades
Messages
2,041
Reaction score
6
Points
0
abikerboy said:
Sorry about that interjection. Didnt know that abs and pvc were the same material. Was just stating what the plumber said caused the failure. Was told that the glue would be right for either the abs or the pvc, not for both, and that the "wrong" material would end up not bonding.
I was referring to the CPVC cement and the "All Purpose" cement, not PVC and ABS.
 

GrumpyPlumber

Licensed Grump
Messages
1,521
Reaction score
57
Points
48
Location
Licensed Grump
Verdeboy said:
For all you know, they could have used "Elmers Glue" on that joint.:D

You had a bad situation, (homemade tee, rigged repair, etc.,) but it is definitely irrelevant to this discussion.

We're talking about 2 products that are exactly the same, but have different names.

It looked like you were referring to the pipes in his tee scenario.
It's ok to debate issues, another word for it would be an "exchange" of idea's.
Also...CPVC glue and "all purpose" aren't the same, but maybe there are some mfg's that are, but I'm not about to use CPVC glue on PVC or ABS...this is one reason why plumbing boards "stick their noses" into approving products.
Left unwatched, mfg's would be pawning Elmers glue titled "all purpose" for steele gas pipe to anyone willing to buy it. (I have questions about certain "bonding agents" for concrete applications)
Then it goes to the opposite extreme to where we have glues for irrigation, sprinkler, CPVC, PVC, ABS, hot weather, cold weather...list goes on.

Verdeboy said:
The resin that is considered to be good enough for all these systems, including ABS, is CPVC resin. If you have a problem with that, why don't you go to the plumbing authorities to try to get the all purpose stuff banned.

According to ASTM F493, it's not me with the problem, in fact...that is "the plumbing authority".
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks