Ejector sizing question

TV · 07-10-2007, 01:56 PM

No commercial electric power available at the well site. Existing shallow well goes dry in summer months. New well drilled to 140 Ft with 6" casing, driller says good for 15 Gallons per minute. Existing Honda powered 5-1/2 HP two stage centrifugal pumps (Grainger 5ZT40) 15 gallons a minute to a gravity tank elevated 100 Ft above existing shallow well. So far my plan is a intermediate transfer tank at top of new casing to collect water from the new drilled well and then a second lift with the same pump to the existing 100 Ft elevated gravity tank. The existing pump has 1-1/2 In inlet and outlets and a 2 In line up the hill to the gravity tank.

I am thinking 1-1/4 In down the new well to a new ejector and 1-1/2 in back up to the existing pump and transfer tank. Need a source for such a ejector and also need criteria for sizing the nozzle the ejector is to be equipped with?

All suggestions appreciated.
TV

**speedbump** · 07-11-2007, 06:09 AM

You kind of lost me with the tank on top of the well casing thing.

The important questions haven't been answered yet. What is your static water level?

Is this 100' your referring to horizontal/vertical or a little of both? And how much of each?

If you plan on putting an ejector in this six inch well, it will have to be a Four Inch Two Pipe Jet which will not do 15 gpm no matter what you do. Seven may be closer to the truth and the static water level will have a lot to do with that number. You will need two pipes down the well, 1-1/4" and 1", you will have to install an automatic regulator on the output side of this gas operated centrifugal to allow you to tee water back down to the jet to make it operate. The automatic regulator can be adjusted once installed to get the jet to work. This has never been done to my knowledge, but is feasable.

bob...

**Wet_Boots** · 07-11-2007, 08:43 AM

If there's no power on the site, then that gasoline would be better off used to drive a generator, with a submersible pump in the well. That Grainger pump is not a convertible jet pump.

TV · 07-11-2007, 12:21 PM

Thank you both for the above.
I have a general understanding of the basic hydraulics including the required flow differential valve . Was hoping to find a affordable ejector capacity closer to the capacity of the existing Pump, but so far have only found ejectors rated for 1-1/2 HP, 1" drive x 1-1/4" up for residential pumps. If at all possible need to use the existing pump as drilling the well exhausted any funds that could be available to purchase a submergable and generator with sufficient capacity to get a submergable off of the starter winding without stress. Yes this is not a convertible jet pump, but please explain why it wont work with the ejector at the bottom of the 140 Ft well?

Pump specs from AMT who makes this pump which Granger no longer sells.
http://www.amtpump.com/products/25-26.shtml
http://www.amtpump.com/products/s25-26.shtml

Assuming for the moment, the existing pump and available residential ejector will do it with a somewhat throttled down output, the linked deep well performance chart calls for a DW40E equipped with #14 nozzle and a #20 venturi to bring watter up from 140 Ft at 6 GPM.
http://www.flintandwalling.com/pdfdo...0VS-%20VPH.pdf

Again assuming this will work, what is available to keep the foot valve off of the bottom of the well and out of any possible sand?

A second lift from a proposed transfer tank to the 100 Ft elevated gravity tank is not a problem as the existing pump now pumps 15 GPM form the existing shallow (15 FT) well.
Thanks again,
TV

TV · 07-11-2007, 12:28 PM

Thank you both for the above.
I have a general understanding of the basic hydraulics including the required flow differential valve . Was hoping to find a affordable ejector capacity closer to the capacity of the existing Pump, but so far have only found ejectors rated for 1-1/2 HP, 1" drive x 1-1/4" up for residential pumps. If at all possible need to use the existing pump as drilling the well exhausted any funds that could be available to purchase a submersible and generator with sufficient capacity to get a submersible off of the starter winding without stress. Yes this is not a convertible jet pump, but please explain why it wont work with the ejector at the bottom of the 140 Ft well?

Pump specs from AMT who makes this pump which Granger no longer sells.
http://www.amtpump.com/products/25-26.shtml
http://www.amtpump.com/products/s25-26.shtml

Assuming for the moment, the existing pump and available residential ejector will do it with a somewhat throttled down output, the linked deep well performance chart calls for a DW40E equipped with #14 nozzle and a #20 venturi to bring watter up from 140 Ft at 6 GPM.
http://www.flintandwalling.com/pdfdo...0VS-%20VPH.pdf

Again assuming this will work, what is available to keep the foot valve off of the bottom of the well and out of any possible sand?

A second lift from a proposed transfer tank to the 100 Ft elevated gravity tank is not a problem as the existing pump now pumps 15 GPM form the existing shallow (15 FT) well.
Thanks again,
TV

**speedbump** · 07-12-2007, 05:36 AM

Until you tell me what your water level is in this 140 foot well, I'm not going to be of any more help.

bob...

TV · 07-12-2007, 06:49 AM

Sorry, spaced that one out, The static water level is 21 Ft above the bottom of the well.
TV

**speedbump** · 07-12-2007, 06:52 AM

So your saying your static water level is 119 feet. Or in other words 119 feet to water from the earths surface. You said this gas pump you have is a two stage pump. Since I have never heard of a two stage gas operated centrifugal, are you sure it's two stage? If so, do you know what it's maximum pressure is? Never mind, I just revisited your link. It says:

Two-stage models feature Cast Iron diffusers and Stainless Steel closed impellers for high efficiency producing up to 155 PSI that generally requires 8 horsepower or more from a single stage pump. That statement is rather confusing.

Is yours an eight horse? Notice the words "UP TO". I don't know of many two stage pumps that will make 80 psi let alone 155 psi without a jet with a very small nozzle and venturi. Not only that but gas engines cannot turn the rpms that an electric 3600 rpm motor can so that means the impellers would have to be much bigger in diameter to get up to pressures like they are boasting.

The jet does not have to be commercial or anything else short of domestic, the pump has to be able to make the pressures needed to push the water up from the jet. And I don't think a gas pump from anywhere is going to be able to do that.

bob...

bob...

**Wet_Boots** · 07-12-2007, 08:04 AM

Why bother trying to invent something no manufacturer would bother trying to sell? A submersible pump is way more efficient than a jet pump, working at a 120 foot pumping level. Why not use a generator to drive electric pump(s)? The generator will give you a regulated power output, which a gas engine won't do. It might even be that a jury-rigged gasoline deep-well-pump might work with summertime gasoline, and fail to work with wintertime gasoline.

**speedbump** · 07-12-2007, 08:48 AM

He's right, the pump you want to use isn't the way to go. At best, at that depth even if you could get the pump to do the pressure you need, your gpm would be around 1 to 2.

bob...

TV · 07-12-2007, 08:49 AM

The existing pump is model 4789-95, 5-1/2 HP, Honda. The existing system pushes water up 100 FT in about 210 Feet of 2 In PE pipe delivering 15 GPM to the non-pressure gravity tank with the pump developing around 60 PSI as measured at the Pump. The pump manual states this model develops a maximum of 69 PSI. The existing pump system also pulls up water from the existing shallow well a maximum of 15 Ft without a ejector. Your pump RPM comment is understood. This is a 2 stage centrifical pump.

I am not to concerned about a much slower delivery rate. So the question seems to be, will 60 PSI bring water up the 119+ feet to the surface into a non-pressure transfer tank and what ejector nozzle and venturi size would be required?
Thanks again for hanging in there on this with me.
TV

**speedbump** · 07-12-2007, 08:58 AM

The 100 feet up translates into 43.3 lbs of pressure minus friction loss. The pump you have will not make a jet operate at 119 feet. It would take more pressure than what you have. I am not going from the books that say their jet pump with X nozzle and venturi will lift water from 250 foot I'm going from experience. When you get past 100 feet, you are at just about the limit of any jet pump. Usually when you down that far, the backpressure on the pump is set at around 70 to 80 lbs. just to make the jet operate. The pump itself including the jet can make well over 100 psi. I'm talking about a 2hp 3 stage pump. Anything less, will not work.

bob...

**Wet_Boots** · 07-12-2007, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by TV

I am not to concerned about a much slower delivery rate. So the question seems to be, will 60 PSI bring water up the 119+ feet to the serface into a non-pressure transfer tank and what ejector nozle and venturi size would be required?

If you don't care about efficiency or reliability, why not purchase several ejector assemblies and do some experimenting? It's all for fun, right? If you really hate generators, there's always a windmill-driven pump, which might be able to fill the uphill tank on its own, with no gasoline required.

TV · 07-12-2007, 09:03 AM

You are correct, a submersible electric and generator would be the way to go, if there where available money, which there is not for the time being, so need to try to make the existing pump work if at all possible.