Major water issues

I assume your husband doesn't like false fire alarms. Yet he is lying, actually it's worse than that, he wants YOU to lie... to someone that is coming to the house to look into the water system.

When the guy shows up and finds out he was lied to, he may not take that kindly, especially if he isn't charging for the time etc. to give you an estimate.

Honesty is always the best policy.

Tell hubby I said he needs to man up and get this load off you by spending some time reading these replies and asking his own questions about the well etc..

Otherwise I think he should spend all his time at the station for maybe the next 2-3 weeks.... Give me his email address and I can tell him.

Raucina - I am laughing pretty hard here - we do so many of the things suggested (bringing home water for the animals from the fire department, washing at the coin-op, drinking bottled water, using paper plates and plastic utensils, using baby wipes to wash hands, etc.). I don't have any problem taking the helm as long as I am reasonably assured I am on the right path (so it doesn't come back to haunt me).

Gary - he already spends too much time at the station!! Please don't tell him to spend more!!!!

You have all convinced me we do need a new well - which is what all of the professionals have been telling me. I will go forth and drill!!

I do have a question, however, about the storage tank that people keep mentioning. What kind of a storage tank? Do you connect to your household water supply permanently, as needed, or ??? Where do you get the water to fill the storage tank??? My husband has mentioned capturing rain water for the animals but he hasn't done anything about it. I think that would be a great idea but not sure how to keep it useable (and not breeding mosquitos). Posts to these questions would be much appreciated!

Thanks again - the humor did me some good in these dire circumstances!

A storage tank is simple in concept, and pretty simple also to implement: instead of pumping from your well into your house, you divert your well pump output instead into a storage tank (say 1000gal at least) and turn it on/off with a float/level switch. Then, you install a second, smaller/simpler pump to drive your pressure tank/house plumbing from the water in the tank.

The joy of this is that your well pump, which should have a Pumptec protector on it, runs whenever there is water available and fills the tank, and after a while hopefully you have a buildup of water in the tank that you can use REGARDLESS of whether the well can produce, at the time you need the water. An added benefit of a storage tank system is that if your well stops producing entirely, you can fill your tank from <whereever> ie. have it trucked-in for example.

I built a storage tank initially just to aerate the water (took the smell out of it) but then when our well stopped producing I simply filled the tank from our swimming pool (at first) and eventually from rainwater collection. Longer story but having the storage tank was like a God-send when the well stopped...

Sounds like a good solution if you have water some of the time and not always enough for high periods of demand. How do you keep the water from stagnating in the storage tank? I know one of the well drillers told me he offered the use of one of these tanks in the event that something happened during the process of hydrofracturing and we completely lost the well. In my mind's eye, I just couldn't see how you would get it hooked into the house system without putting a lot more work into the project and I also worried about introducing bacteria from a tank that had been sitting around into my water heater and pipes. Sounds like there are methods to manage it.

I am looking at water storage tanks on line - had no idea you could buy something like this for residential use (see them on farms all the time). How many gallons would be reasonable for a reserve supply? How does one keep it from freezing during the winter?

jsmith7535 said:

How many gallons would be reasonable for a reserve supply? How does one keep it from freezing during the winter?

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Depends on where you are going to put it, I'd say 500 - 5,000 gallons is the right size. Where do you have your current pressure tank to keep it from freezing in the winter?

Rancher

jsmith7535 said:

How do you keep the water from stagnating in the storage tank? I also worried about introducing bacteria from a tank that had been sitting around into my water heater and pipes. Sounds like there are methods to manage it.

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With a 0.75gpm well and no muni water within 10 miles, may I respectfully suggest that stagnation is the least of your worries!!?!!!

Yes, all those things can be dealt with--thousands if not millions of people manage their own water supplies--including potential freezing (where DO you live?) i.e. you can bury a cistern if necessary. I think your primary goal at this point should be to find a Master plumber you can trust, to start a proper needs assessment...

I live in north central Wisconsin - we are sitting on miles of red granite. I am sure that is part of the water problem here.

My pressure tank is in my basement so no issue with freezing. Maybe I have the wrong picture of a water tank but I am thinking one of those large round tanks would never fit through the door even if I had space to put it in the basement (I do not). I suppose if you go with something smaller (about the same size as the pressure tank) I could do it but I wonder if that would be that much help?

>I live in north central Wisconsin...

God's country!!! "Warsaw", right? I'm from Milwaukee & Green Lake myself... I dunno jsmith, I'm now in TX where we don't even have a "frost line"! But I suspect if you have no room-much-less-access in your basement you could still do an underground concrete cistern, akin to a septic tank. No problem that your pressure tank is in your basement; a bigger deal to me might be "where to put the new pump" since it's likely a pump down there would be more noise than you'd want.

Here there are just two of us, and we do fine with just 75 gallons a day, until wash-day and then all bets are off! But maybe you can get a 150-200 gallon tank into your basement which would help some, wouldn't it? You could enclose the aux pump in cinder blocks or something to muffle the noise from it. Thinking out loud here; surely there are some plumbers with Integrity in northern Wisconsin who understand the conditions and know of some solutions available? Heck, all the years I was working one of my favorite expressions was, "all the good guys are from Wisconsin"!!!!?!!!

It's cocktail hour here; for some reason I am craving a Leinie!!!

Yes, "Warsaw" is right (we are just a little north of there). One time when I was traveling the guy in front of me was asked for his passport when he tried to check in for a flight in Chicago to Central Wisconsin airport a.k.a. Wausau/Mosinee Airport. His reply, "I didn't know you needed a passport to go to Wisconsin."

I wouldn't say they don't have integrity around here - just lazy more than anything. They want to do what is easiest or the most lucrative for them despite what is best for the customer. Heck, I can't even get anyone to come out unless I say I want a well drilled. No interest in small jobs (I guess there are too many big ones to fool around with it). The other problem, I suspect, is that we are "outsiders" being new to the area. You certainly do not get treated the same way as someone who has lived here all of their lives. They are not mean or anything - just not willing to be as helpful. My husband, belonging to the volunteer fire department, will get to know some of these people and eventually we should get inside loop but that takes time.

I will continue to hunt for someone who is willing to look at more options because I am not interested in spending $5k+ to find out there is no water to be had and then putting in a holding tank anyway. I think putting another small tank in the basement might work out okay so I will ask specifically for that option and see what they say. For now, at least, the water problem has improved with the bypass of the filter and we can shower easily and get enough water to do a couple of loads of laundry every 3-4 days. We have learned extensive water conservation skills and we can maintain at this level. Thankfully, the hand pump at the park is available to us for watering our animals or this would never work (I get so mad when those horses kick the water bucket over and waste good water!!!).

Can you get a Leinie's in Texas??? Hope so because they are the best! Maybe I should just pack up and move to Texas!!!!!

Instead of doing laundry every few days, spread it out like one load a day or every other day.

I still do not believe the .75 gal/hr figure. There is no way to measure a recovery rate that small unless he spent many hours there standing around. The proof is that you are now operating the household without the pump sucking air.

In WI there are licensed pump guys, find one and have him check the static water level in the well and compute the amount of water used since the first water use in the morning. I think you'll find you're fine as long as you conserve and spread water use out over an hour or so between larger uses.

Master and other plumbers usually don't know much about wells and pumps...

jsmith7535 said:

Can you get a Leinie's in Texas???

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Ha, ha! No way! The local beer is Shiner; the good news is that for some reason Germans made it to Galveston and are all over here... Maybe tho I am too easy--I also like Point!

Sorry you are having trouble with "the locals"--sounds like they might be from Minnesota! Never have seen a less-friendly bunch there! ('cept maybe here on this board)

Yes, you do need to move to Texas...

Gary Slusser said:

In WI there are licensed pump guys, find one and have him check the static water level in the well and compute the amount of water used since the first water use in the morning.

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The licensed pump guy around here is the guy who put in this pump/water system and the one who has measured it twice at .75 gal/hour. I promise you I am not mistaken - not saying you are wrong because I don't see how it could be right either. That is what prompted me to start this chain...

As I mentioned before, I have spoken to a few others and they don't have much interest in coming out to look at anything if they don't think they have a shot at a new system. They ask a lot of questions on the phone, tell me it sounds like I need a new well and basically decline my offer to come and take a look.

MaxBlack said:

I also like Point!

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Me too. May not have much in the way of water up here but you can get all of the beer you want!

Texas is a nice place to visit but I am not sure it is for me. The last time I was there, I left a pen laying on the console of the car and it ended up melted into the plastic. Too hot for me!

jsmith7535 said:

I have spoken to a few others and they don't have much interest in coming out to look...

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You had said you expected a plumber to look at your barn. Did that happen? Maybe it is time to break-out the digital camera and post a few pics of your well/tank/filter setup. Maybe someone here can suggest something else for you to try or look at.

How old is the house? How big is your water heater, and how old is it? You said earlier you had pressure & water yet the washer wasn't working--maybe we need to focus on that problem and see what the heck might be wrong cuz that doesn't add-up. Wondering here if your water heater might be full of gunk, or the lines to the washer, or any filters/screens therein.

Nobody has shown up yet. They say they will come but they don't....

You just had to go there on the water heater, didn't you? This place is like a nightmare - we don't have a water heater, we have a boiler. It is tied into the wood burning furnace outside. It has an internal chamber (I am told) that is dedicated to heating the potable water for the house. The external chamber is what circulates through the house for heating. However, it is the cold water that is the biggest problem. We can also heat this water supply with propane which is what is used at the moment. I don't use warm or hot water to wash most of my clothes. Even if I did, it is the rinse cycle that is usually the problem and that is always cold by design with my washer. When water gets tight, even the wash cycle has problems. The only weird thing I can think of tied to the hot water supply is that the guy used the hot water supply to the toilets instead of the cold - he said it cuts down on sweating. Or did he know something about the cold water supply and decided there was more pressure through the boiler???

We have checked the inlet to the washer many times and there is never a problem with blockage either in the screen or the line. I think it is strictly a supply problem that comes and goes. Right now the thing is running with no problems - an hour from now probably not. Thank goodness for a low volume washer or we would never be able to run the washer....

The house is only about 7 years old but was built by a guy who fancies himself a builder but is really a carpenter. Many things are not right which is why my husband is so adamant that he thinks there is something other than the well that is the problem - particularly since we had water for a little while when we first moved in. His theory is that there is something the guy knew about that he managed that we don't know. We know he put in the internal plumbing himself. When we moved in, the upstairs laundry room was not connected (it was being used as a pantry/storage area). I wanted the laundry on the main floor so we had the water, electric and vent connected (everything was there - just not connected). My husband thinks if we moved the laundry back to the basement we wouldn't have all of these problems with the washer - and he might be right! Who knows??? You can certainly get a better shower in the basement than you can anywhere else in the house.

Pictures? I can do that but it is as simple as can be. The pump is in the well, not in the house (sorry if I didn't make that clear before). The pipe comes in the wall, goes into the filter and then into the pressure tank with a couple of cut off valves inbetween. There are some pipes that go to the water softener and back again, which are bypassed, and then into the household supply. Basic as can be (except maybe for that whole house filter). By the way, my husband tried to replace the filter cartridge and cannot get the housing loose to open it up and replace it. The pipes move but not the housing and he is afraid of breaking off a pipe. Waiting again for a plumber to show up!

The only other curiosity in this house is that we seem to go through an inordinate number of valves (not sure of the proper term - talking about the outdoor spickets). In the time we have been here, we have had four outdoor valves go bad including one in the garage. I think that is odd but maybe we are just lucky in that respect (having all of the go bad within a year of each other)....or could it be pressure induced and those are the most vulnerable??

I vote for move to Texas.

They ask a lot of questions on the phone, tell me it sounds like I need a new well and basically decline my offer to come and take a look.

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Were you expecting them to come out for nothing or did you offer to pay a service call?

bob...

Note jsmith that I am not a plumber, just a Mr. Fixit whose rainwater system is the envy of the county...

I don't use warm or hot water to wash most of my clothes. Even if I did, it is the rinse cycle that is usually the problem

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Maybe simply cuz the rinse cycle needs-water-NOW vs. the wash cycle which just waits indefinitely til the tub reaches the level you asked for.

the guy used the hot water supply to the toilets instead of the cold - he said it cuts down on sweating.

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I've heard of this before, when the water coming-out of the the ground was icy cold. Maybe not so wierd.

Or did he know something about the cold water supply and decided there was more pressure through the boiler???

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Hmmm, I'm more a "people are really stupid" guy then "people are so smart there's a conspiracy everywhere" kinda guy, but if there IS more pressure on the hot side, it likely is due to the boiler, i.e. it acts somewhat like a pressure tank (without the air-pressure bladder inside). It's prolly big enough that when you have no water from the well, the "hot" side seems to hold pressure longer than the "cold" side.

The house is only about 7 years old but was built by a guy who fancies himself

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Ha, ha, we gots lots of those guys right here!!!

we had water for a little while when we first moved in....My husband thinks if we moved the laundry back to the basement we wouldn't have all of these problems with the washer

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Sorry, but, this is a "well, duh!" IMO. The basement is near the supply as well as "under" the weight of the water in the rest of the house. So it's gonna be the last place you feel any pressure before the water is gone. As for having water when you first moved-in, maybe the underground supply had built itself-up from lack-of-use and you just worked it down faster than the owner had been doing.

my husband tried to replace the filter cartridge and cannot get the housing loose to open it up and replace it. The pipes move but not the housing and he is afraid

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What did I miss--I thought earlier-on in this thread you said something about bypassing this filter? Gotta do that--it could very well be causing the got-pressure/now-got-no-pressure problems you have i.e. water trickles thru the filter to load-up the pressure tank, then you use the water and the trickling must continue to load-up again. I'd get the blasted thing the heck out of there macht schnell. Get your hubbie and one of his macho friends out of the local saloon long enough to take care of this--one guy holds the pipes while the other wrenches the filter housing off.

...we seem to go through an inordinate number of valves...could it be pressure induced?

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But... how could you think (too much) pressure is ever your problem! It's likelier that they are getting corroded from disuse (you DON'T waste water on the great out-of-doors anyway do you?) Take a boxfull of the bad ones in to your best hardware store, and the old guy in there will tell you why they failed. "Hose bibs", spigots, outdoor faucets... J, are you from WI originally? Didja know that "bubblers" is exclusively a WI term? Something you gotta get out of your vocabulary when you leave the state, or folks look at you funny.

You are gonna get smart about all this stuff, and after you've fixed your house you can offer your services to the neighbors...

I have offered to pay a service call fee and that doesn't hold any interest for them.