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Thread: Danger Zone ??

  1. #31
    DIY Senior Member molo's Avatar
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    Default Plot Thickens, Challenge Continues

    Look at that vent! It is right in the way of me moving the box over to the center of the med cab. and installing nice new light! That explains why they had the old box off to the left!
    The vent/light that I installed takes a 100w bulb, this is a small bathroom. Should I abandon putting a light above3 the med cab. or will the vent light not be enough?
    Any suggestions for abandoning the med-cab light, reusing the old box location, or relocating another light are very welcome.

    TIA,
    Molo
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  2. #32
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    leave the box location where it is and hang something like this



    use a hook in the ceiling to center the light back over the cabinet

  3. #33
    DIY Member D.Smith's Avatar
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    Now why cant you just put a junction box with cover there and run 14/3 to back of light behind the wall where it would fit inside to do the splicing?

  4. #34
    Jack of all trades frenchie's Avatar
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    D. Smith - because there's no room for a box between the pipe and the cabinet? And junction boxes have to remain accessible.

    Molo - I'm not 100% sure, but I think I've seen fixtures, similar to the one you had on there originally, that allow the wires to go through the middle or near then end of the fixture's back panel...

    Push comes to shove, could you lower the cabinet an inch?

  5. #35
    DIY Senior Member molo's Avatar
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    Hi frenchie,

    That's pushing and shoving, lol. The amount I have to lower it would depend on the size of the light fixture.
    Another option I've been considering is using the existing location of the box (at the top left of the med. cabinet) (where power comes into the bathroom), and using it for the GFCI outlet location, then everything in the bathroom will be GFCI protected. I would relocate the light receptacle to the ceiling centered above the med cab.( I want to avoid it being off-center of the med cab.) I would have to use the GFCI outlet box as a junction box where the switch wire, new med.cab light wire , and new bathfan/light wire would be. My concern with this is fitting all the wires in the box behind the GFCI. There would be power coming in (3-14gauge wires), power coming off the GFCI to be spliced with other wires (2-12gauge wires), the switch (3-14gauge wires), the med cab light (3-12gauge wires), and the new fan/light (3-12gauge wires), plus the GFCI outlet!
    A grand total of 6-14gauge wires coming in, 6 - 12gauge wires coming in, 2 -12gauge wires coming off the outlet within the box bringing power to the switch/light system, and the outlet.
    Is this even possible?
    Is there any easy way of doing this?
    Again the goal : "The goal: To safely install or reinstall the medicine cabinet light. To wire the new vent/light. To havde both the medicine cabinet light and vent controlled by the one bathroom switch. To add a GFCI outlet not controlled by the switch." (if the GFCI protects everything in the bathroom that would be a bonus, but not neccesary)

    Thanks for the patience and help,
    Molo

  6. #36
    Jack of all trades frenchie's Avatar
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    I like the idea of everything being GFI protected, but it's not required by any codes I know of... Mike (jwelectric) is the code expert, though: wait till he confirms/denies this.

    Even if it wasn't overloading the box (and I think it would be), I just don't see how you could physically fit 4 runs, the required wire nuts, and a GFI in a normal receptacle box.

    I've come across this sort of problem before, though. My sparky uses a larger box:

    http://electrical.hardwarestore.com/...ox-239574.aspx

    (you can also get extra-deep version of this, if you need even more room inside)

    With a mudring on it:

    http://electrical.hardwarestore.com/...4--662552.aspx

    The mudrings we use have a bit more depth on the raised ring. He installs them so that the ring's level with the wall finish surface, and I plaster/tape over the sides. You can still get to all the wires from the opening, so it's not a concealed junction box.

    Side-note: you want to leave your wires, in the box, longer than the usual 6". He usually leaves 9 or 10, for this kind of setup.


    BTW, overhead lighting in a bathroom really sucks when you're trying to shave, because of the shadows.





    Mike can tell me if this is legal - I've seen it a lot, in old work - could you run the light off a receptacle box installed sideways? Then it's only about 2" tall, and you'd have room between the pipe and the cabinet. Since all your junctions would be in the receptacle box, capacity wouldn't be an issue...
    Last edited by frenchie; 07-05-2007 at 02:45 PM.

  7. #37
    DIY Senior Member molo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frenchie


    Mike can tell me if this is legal - I've seen it a lot, in old work - could you run the light off a receptacle box installed sideways? Then it's only about 2" tall, and you'd have room between the pipe and the cabinet. Since all your junctions would be in the receptacle box, capacity wouldn't be an issue...
    I like this idea, I'd still need a large box to fit 12 wires coming in and out.

  8. #38
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frenchie
    Mike can tell me if this is legal -
    Sounds good to me.

    There are a few choices available to him and a few decisions he will have to make on his own,

  9. #39

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    If you use a bath bar fixture like the one you took out, you can put the JBox where it was and drill/punch the back of the new fixture in the appropriate place. Use a BUSHING where the wires enter of course.

  10. #40
    DIY Senior Member molo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alectrician
    If you use a bath bar fixture like the one you took out, you can put the JBox where it was and drill/punch the back of the new fixture in the appropriate place. Use a BUSHING where the wires enter of course.
    Let me ask a question that perhaps I should have asked a long time ago. What makes the existing light dangerous? A couple of you have said that the back is missing, I can say that there is a front cover (not in photos) that goes over the part in the photos. The front cover (not in photos) has parts that cover the ends of the light fixture (in photos)running back to the wall. So, between the ends provided by the front part (not in photos), and the top and the bottom of the fixture (in photos), and the sheetrock on the wall (soon-to be) there is a complete enclosure around the wires. Is this dangerous? I know that alot of new light fixtures have insulation with a reflective layer, is this all that you guys are referring to when you say someting is missing or are you referring to the front cover with sides that run back to the wall(not in photos)? Exactly what is it that you guys think is missing? Based on what I just explained, does the light fixture still sound dangerous? There are 3 other bathrooms here, all with the same light over the medicine cabinet. Maybe I should answer these questions before I buy 3 more lights.
    Thanks,
    Molo
    Last edited by molo; 07-05-2007 at 08:55 PM.

  11. #41
    Jack of all trades frenchie's Avatar
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    Your photos gave the impression that 1/2 the fixture was missing. You have the back and the front? Then you're set.

    Do as Alectrician says - drill out a new hole in the back, give it a bushing, run your wires where you need them to be for the fixture to be centered. The right bit to do this with, since you want a very clean hole, is an electician's stepped bit, they run about 40$ but give a nice, clean hole that you can fit a bushing onto. A regular bit will tear the edges.

    http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=362-105

    I was going to suggest that, but assumed it was illegal to modify listed equipement... I guess maybe not?



    My idea for using a receptacle box at the light, was based on using the bigger box with a mud-ring for the receptacle box, and doing all you splices there - only one cable run to the light box.
    Last edited by frenchie; 07-05-2007 at 11:05 PM.

  12. #42
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    In a small bathroom, it may not be possible, but I prefer to use lights to the sides of the mirror; you get fewer unflattering shadows that way, and then you would avoid the problem you have with the vent pipe. If you wanted, you could jog the vent pipe as well.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  13. #43
    DIY Senior Member molo's Avatar
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    Default Inspection Time

    Ok, this is what I've done. I've temporarily installed the outlet and light fixture to see if this worked. I will be replacing the temporary standard 15 amp outlet with a 15 amp GFCI outletas soon as I get to the store, and I will be replacing the light IF you experts STILL think it's unsafe. PLEASE look at the photos of the light fixture with the front attached and tell me if it's still unsafe. This is exactly how it was installed when I got to it.
    How I wired this:
    I used a large metal box (4" x4" x 2 1/8" deep) above the medicine cabinet. I also installed an outlet box to the right of the vanity (in photo). I used the big metal box to junction the old power leg with new power going to the outlet. Then I brought powre out of the outlet back into the big metal box and used that as my power leg to wire the switch, light, and fan to.
    1. Is this light still dangerous?
    2. What is the best way to hande the 5 ground wires?

    TIA,
    Molo
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  14. #44
    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    You done a good job. Make sure that all the wires go into the box and nothing is left out except the fixture wires.

    Where is the receptacle?

  15. #45
    DIY Senior Member molo's Avatar
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    If you look at photo 1 from my last post, the receptacle is at the lower left.

    1. Is this light still dangerous?
    2. What is the best way to hande the 5 ground wires?

    TIA,
    Molo

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