Tight fit in an older house

All,

I've been lurking on Terry Love's forums for several weeks now and have really appreciated the discussions to-date. This is my first post, so please excuse me in advance if I sound a little naive or am asking something that has been answered elsewhere.

I'm working on a remodel of my ground floor bath and am struggling with something a little beyond my experience. The remodel is a total strip -- 80yo house, 3.5" of mortar and tile, ancient cast iron tub, galvanized water lines, knob-and-tube, you get the picture -- and as you can see, I'm down to joists and studs at this point.

My problem is with the location of the current toilet drain in the original cast iron stack. I've removed the original closet and lead pipe and chiselled everything out of the hub, but the fact remains that the top of the hub is flush with the top of the joist/underside of the subfloor. Even though the run is nominal, I don't believe there is enough room to turn the pipe leading from the closet, let alone maintain any kind of slope.



Because the "T" is cut into the joist and leads to a "Y" almost immediately below it, I also can't figure out a reasonable way replace it without doing a wholesale re-plumb (time to call in a pro at that point).



What I'm proposing to do is to cut into the waste pipe in the crawl space below -- ideally at the red arrow, possibly at the green arrow. The latter requires more angle fitting than I like, but I don't know if I can cut into the section indicated by the red arrow and still meet code (it's a relatively short run, ~18" from hub to hub).



I would welcome any comments or suggestion on any of the above. Should I go ahead and try to make the pipe fit to the existing "T"? Can I plug the "T" and cut into either of the two locations in the crawlspace? Or is it time to call in the cavalry and re-work the entire vent stack and waste connection?

Thanks in advance...

Jay

I don't know if this counts as a suggestion, but I really don't like the way your joists have been carved up.

Google "notching joists". I think you have to replumb. And either replace, or sister, those joists.

frenchie said:

I don't know if this counts as a suggestion, but I really don't like the way your joists have been carved up.

Google "notching joists". I think you have to replumb. And either replace, or sister, those joists.

Click to expand...

Code, in my state...notching ONLY within the first and last thrid of the overall length of the joist, NO notch to exceed 1/5th the width of the joist (I.E. 18' - 2x10 joist, notch can't exceed 2" within 6' of either end)
Frenchie's right...you definitely have to reinforce that.(unless code in your state allows over half the joist to be notched)
That picture is reason #1 that old houses so often have sloped/warped floors.
You are proposing cutting into cast Iron and relocating at least one fixture drain (likely the water pipe would need to be moved as well)
Without seeing the dimensions of the bathroom, location of vents, water lines ..and even what type water lines are there (could even be galvy from that age)...this isn't exactly a small "in and out" job, depending on circumstance.
Moving and/or replacing anything there might require repiping/venting that could then affect the placement of other fixtures/structure.
I'd strongly suggest a contractor and/or plumber at least look at it.

Frenchie,

Believe me, this isn't the worst of it. Here's the remains of where the old bathtub was connected to the drain:



I am still trying to figure out how to do this one. There's nothing to sister to, so it may require a complete replacement (also out of my league). It gets even more sublime when you realize that joist is only 5 feet long and rotted at the far end -- it was cut off to make room for the adjacent shower pan.

My consulting contractor hasn't seen this yet, so I'm holding off until he has a chance to comment. I've also got an engineer working up the preliminaries so I can have an entire basement quoted -- but I promised the wife I would move ahead with the remodel, and when you're married to a Russian girl, you keeps your promisesss...

GP, the answer is "yes" to all of the above. I've covered off all of the water line (replacing all the galvi in the walls with copper, at the very least) and vent stack moves except for this one -- the "imbedded" nature and close proximity to the "Y" connecting to the buried main are stumping me. And cutting it out is clearly beyond my skill set; there's not even a good place that I can see to attach riser clamps (too close to the stud). If I do the excavation mentioned above, this all becomes moot; but since I'm working in parallel, I wanted to understand all of my options.

Thanks for all the advice!

Jay

only toilet?

jay, are you saying only one thing gets moved? The toilet, inside that space shown?

david

David,

The new toilet will stay in the same relative position (code being what it is), but probably connect to the DWV in the crawlspace below (I realized after making my original post I could cut out the hub entirely; for some reason my mind was fixed on cutting to either side of it). I am inclined to plug and leave the existing "T" in place, notch notwithstanding.

The bathtub is not being replaced. I will probably pull out the old galvi water lines, cut out the "T" in that vent stack and leave it for future use when I build the new master bath in the adjacent bedroom. I'm still trying to decide what to do with that huge notch. I just had an engineer look at it this evening -- he assured me I could rest the sisters on the existing 2" of exposed sill, so it may be easier than I first thought.

The shower (not shown) water lines will stay as is (already copper, just adapted for the new valves is all), and the vent stack will move from the wall common with the hallway to an interior wall opposite (should have been done when they built the shower in the first place to improve the overall geometry of the space, but somebody was "saving" money by using an existing stack).

So, to summarize, the only significant moves will be the toilet drain and the shower stack. Everything else is a matter of "fitting in" the new fixtures (the footprints are different for the toilet, sink, and shower, so the plumbing will need to be adjusted accordingly), or tying off where the bathtub is being removed.

My apologies if this is more information than you were looking for, but I've been "living" this project since February, so I'm carrying a lot of details around in my head .

With regards,

Jay

I am going to say that if you have been at this since Feb. that you need to call in a plumbing contractor and get an estimate. Then decide about the "Big Dig" .

BTW > That Russian girl just call me and asked if I wanted to make some extra money taking care of a small problem for her so I wouldn't waste any time if I were you.

The project is four months old, but it was one of those "the old woman who ate the fly stories": unclogging a drain begat replacing a leaking faucet begat restoring the old medicine cabinet begat refinishing the walls begat...

In the end, I learned the hard way (GP is chuckling right now ) that it really can be easier to gut it and build new, which is what I finally decided to do three weeks ago. It took me that long to finish the demo, which is when I uncovered the "challenges" shown here. Note, I also learned that my prejudice for old construction was poorly conceived -- apparently, contractors in my grandfather's day could be just as capable of shoddy workmanship as anything seen today .

It is true that I am working slower than if I did this for a living, but then again, I suspect if this was my livelihood it might never get fixed ("the shoemaker's children go barefoot"). And as has been pointed out in another thread, I am really enjoying the work, challenges and all -- and I especially appreciate the advice I've received here and elsewhere. The new tools that I've had to buy alone make it all worthwhile!

In my favor, the wife and kids are spending the summer with my in-laws in Minsk, so I've still got some time to put it all back together before I truly risk matrimonial wrath. It's just that the d*mn toilet is on a 70 day backorder (you'ld think that, for the price, Kohler would have better inventory management). So no matter what I do, there is still going to be a hole in the floor until September at the earliest *sigh*.

Seriously, though, thanks for the advice. I'll know by Monday if I'm going to move ahead with the dig or continue to work in the crawlspace. At the very least, it will probably be a combination of the two; I just hate getting cobwebs in my face !

Jay

Kohler has been known to lead people on for many months, waiting for newly ordered product, even though they are an old and highly marketed company. Jim jadnashua has posted about this, if you search here under "shower doors" you will find one or two descriptions of what he experienced.

david