Help plumbers cant find the leak!

Ok so heres the case:
My condo is three floors Im on the middle (2nd floor) My bathroom has a leak in the ceiling. My neighbors bathroom is directly above me. The leak only happens every once in a blue moon...I have had this problem close to a year now! I had roto rooter and another plumbing company to come out and look at the problem. They did the usual they went up to my neighbors and turned all the faucets and water on to try to replicate the leak. There was no freaking leak...I waited and waited and there was no leak. So there was no leak for the next few months then maybe 3 months later it leaked again...and the most recent leak was about a month ago...Im really pissed now but I dont know what to do. I am going to try another plumber this week but I just dont know what ill do if they cant replicate the leak...the sad thing is that the leak happens at midnight and once I knocked on my neighbors door but they didnt answer and I kinda feel bad already because i already had 2 plumbers come to the place and still couldnt find the leak. Im at my wits end right now...I want to get this thing fixed so I can get out of this condo and sell it already. Please help anyone any suggestions anything please

Call the condo association and tell them your problem. I would start looking by opening the ceiling, and the association might frown upon that without prior approval.

Could it be a roof leak?
It is possible that it only leaks when the rain is coming in a specific direction....

Clogged condensate drain on the a/c unit.

years ago i had a similar problem, a once in a blue moon flood, it came down a wall and out the door frame in my case. Turns out that it only happened when the upstairs neighbor filled their tub up to the highest point, that is where the overflow drain is. I couldn't explain it today, as I never looked at it back then and I would just be imagining why it might leak only under those circumstances. Here we go: maybe the seal, where the overflow hardware meets the tub, isn't tightly sealed, and so whenever the tub happens to be used for a long soaking bath, it leaks a bit when some water splashes around and then, instead of coming all down inside the overflow pipe and then going into the drain, some of it splashes through the gap and slides down the tub's outside wall and then into the subfloor and onto your ceiling. There. I managed to explain it.

so you'll have to get them to try one more test; filling the tub to its highest point (to the overflow, not to the brim). And splashing a lot, sloshing it into the overflow hole.

david

p.s. i had more water in my ceiling when another upstairs neighbor used to make ice in his fridge machine, because the plastic tubing used to carry water to the fridge had gotten slit it bit when one of his cooking trays sliced it a bit like a paper cut. Only happened when he both made ice and when the tubing got moved a certain way. Very intermittent. Took me years to show it was from his place.
-d

p.p.s. I would only investigate possible water leaks from fixtures directly above the ceiling damaged.

As mentioned, there are numerous possibilities. Did the plumber open up the plumbing access panel behind the tub?

You might have a small drip that accumulates over time and then seeps through the ceiling all at once. The shower could be in need of caulking or grout. They could have flooded the floor from an overflowing toilet or a shower curtain that was not tucked in properly. The toilet could be leaking below the floor. The tub drain might be leaking sporadically.

If they don't have an access panel, you may need to cut open the ceiling to further investigate this.

not a roof leak

its not a roof leak becoz it has rained hard this past two months and it has not leaked when it rained...can an ac condense unit leak out water that can fill a bucket 1/4 full? so whats the different tub test? not fill it through the brim instead where? i think they tried filling the tub but it got no leak...the condo board already denied tearing up the floor to look for the leak...can i get legal action? but ineed to freaking find a plumber in chicago that can find this leak. One plumber said that he had to tear the floor down to see the leak...another plumber said that it might be coming from another unit owner...thats the only answers i got...i'm tired of this leak...and you know what the board told me they said go ahead and fix my ceiling but i said that did not make sense because the leak is still there...had i fixed the ceiling i would have been out the money i spent...dumb condo board. Any more suggestions so i can prod the plumber that comes out this week ...you guys have been so awesome with the responses...im so glad I found this board...i am going to find a plumbing company thats smaller maybe theyll try a little harder to get the job to do it...any opinions on big company vs little company

Leak

First of all, you cut a hole in the ceiling below--not the floor above. Since you're paying to fix your ceiling anyway, go ahead and make the hole big enough to put your head into and shine a flashlight. Then repeat all the tests done previously and also turn on the shower and let it run against the walls to check for bad caulk or grouting.

An A/C leak could easily create that much water, but it is usually a steady leak and doesn't just come and go. Even if it were hot enough where you live to be using your A/C now, such a leak most likely wouldn't occur in a bathroom ceiling under another bathroom.

leak

Turn on their tub valve, the put your hand in the water stream and divert it up into the oveflow opening. 95% of the time you will find your leak.

are they dumping water all over the floor from time to time (like when the company stays over),
If there is a shower, is some one letting water run out form under the door with a wash cloth over the drain,

that would make it hope fully just now and then,

think outside the box!!!!!!!!

SWITCH UNITS !!!!!

whats a switch unit?

what is a switch unit? and what is the diverter plug? please explain coz im really a novice at this i have no plumbing experience at all thanks again and please keep it coming...any ideas will do so that when the plumber comes in next week I can suggest some of these things...Also please note that the leak happened about 1 year ago...then about 8 months ago...then 5 months...and then finally 2 months ago...im just baffled that a leak does not get worse over time and just completely get bad and shows itself...im really frustrated with all the plumbers that have come in to check this out...I might go with a smaller company plumber so they have more incentive to try to look for the problem and find a solution so they can get the job...any suggestions in Chicago or any recommendations of any good plumbing company in Chicago?

plumbingenigma said:

what is a switch unit?

Click to expand...

He was joking...


The best tactic is to cut a hole in the ceiling and try to trace the leak from there...
Look for the path the water travels and see if you can locate which fixture it is coming from then try to replicate the leak...
Then go about fixing it....
good luck...

Sorry

Was trying to be funny. units ,meaning appts.

You got some good advice. I'd bite the bullet and remove the ceiling in the general area of the leak. remember,water may be leaking a little further away than the stain ,and traveling. now say the area removed is 4 ft square,this may help. nothing shows water like newspaper! get some BLUE masking tape and
tape the funneys to the hole. make it good reading,this may take some time!
Soon as wet spot,don't remove CALL PLUMBER. GOOD LUCK.
PS this fix is the serious one

In an ideal world there would be NO leak; that's not the real world. In an ideal world you would send in one pro once only and she or he would come up with an accurate assessment and diagnosis quickly. That didn't happen. That wasn't in the cards. It's also not the real world situation in many cases. It's hard to know what to advise -- to you, now, in this context. If at first you don't succeed, try again. One set of pro's didn't find the leak, yet, the first time. So don't give up and don't change tactic. All ideas above are geared towards helping you know just enough to be able to think on your own two feet. You must diagnose, find, locate.

Here are a few more ideas.

Be there when anyone tries to diagnose anything. Have the neighbor come downstairs, and you go upstairs. Only you can eliminate the various possibilites and try new ones and keep track of what it ISN'T and what it might be. That is, after the first failed attempt, now it is YOUR problem more than ever before, so now you get that responsibility.

2. Talk to the upstairs neighbor. Nobody is going to tell you to go away. They will cooperate in uncovering the leak.

3. Do what "hj" suggested as it is fast and good. Water in the overflow hole.

4. print out this thread occasionally and show it to a condo administator, and to the upstairs nieghbor. Don't get rabid and aggressive, just be persistent and present.

Only a process of elimination will work. Plumbers are like scientific investigators every day of their lives. One plumber didn't find something during one attempt; OK maybe he was not methodical enough. In everyone's minds are mental maps, representing reality. You get to be the one who develops the main map. Try things out using a methodical process of elimination. This method has worked ever since humans learned they had more intelligence than other mammals. I wonder if dolphins can be shown to use this methodical-process-of-elimination method to get an ironclad result. OK, off topic.

david

plumbingenigma said:

any recommendations of any good plumbing company in chicago?

Click to expand...

Any decent plumber should be able to accurately diagnose this problem without your help or the help of our comments. Unfortunately, you haven't found a good one yet. Whoever recommended that you rip out your upstairs neighbor's floor is completely incompetent.

Your most important task is to find a very good plumber or even a highly recommended handyman to solve this problem. I like the idea of the handyman, because he can also fix your ceiling when you are done.

PS: Have you done what HJ said to do? This is a quick test and can save you a lot of time and money. Fill up the tub until it is overflowing into the overflow drain and look to see if that causes the leak. You should do that right now.

repair

In most cases even a poor plumber will be a better choice than a good handyman, and after the leak is found and fixed, and if there is any repair work to do, then you can call the handyman.

hj said:

In most cases even a poor plumber will be a better choice than a good handyman.

Click to expand...

Apparently, not in this case, however.

Get someone from the condo association to work with you to rule out all of the following:
Shower pan leak
Tub overflow leak
Shower supply pipe leak
Tub fill pipe leak
Tub drain leak
Lavatory drain leak
Lavatory overflow leak
Toilet running over
Failure of caulking around overflow or tub or shower or shower control
Failure of seals on shower or tub valves

Get someone from the condo association to fill the upstairs tub and the sink to the point where they are both running out the overflows, and sustain it for 15 minutes. Use the shower for the first half of the fill and the tub spout for the second half.

If it is a built-in shower pan, then plug the drain and run water until it gets 2" of water standing in the shower. Let stand for 15 minutes.

Then open the drains and flush the toilet.

My guess is that the rubber seal outside the tub behind the upstairs overflow has dried out or the plumber's putty around the tub drain has dried out, allowing the tub to leak only when it is in "overflow" or when there is enough weight in the tub due to someone standing in a tub full of water.
Process of elimination. Try all the tests as recommended again, but with the ceiling opened up.
Good luck!
Mike