Odor in bathrooms ... please advise - soon

addendum

not sure if this makes sense, but the smell is not that of sulfur / rotten eggs - it's a smell i could call a septic smell - strong, foul, but not specifically sulfur.

one more thing ...

i just discovered there's no sewer waste pipe coming out of the roof on this house.

is it probable that the septic fumes vent into the attic crawlspace - ?

as i mentioned, there are two small round vents at the peak of the house (one on either end of the house) that flap open and closed in the wind. that's all the venting i can find.

i'd much appreciate anyone's input on this situation.

all best,

kavita

It's a pretty serious code violation to have plumbing vents exhaust into the attic. Yes, sewer gasses are noxious. In addition to causing health problems, methane can in concentrations be flammable.

This being said, I wouldn't be alarmed yet; I doubt the original vents exhaust into the attic. Go up and check it out. I bet the flapping vents you see thru the roof are your plumbing vents good and proper.

The septic smell in your bathroom is definitely from the broken seal btn yr toilet and the floor.

You have to replace the wax seal and reseat the toilet. You have to make sure that the toilet will sit snug and flat on the new seal and that the base of the toilet can be securely bolted to the flange under the seal.

If there is any rocking in the new config, you'll break the seal and have the same prob again.

immune system in Overdrive. That is what "...eyes and sinuses 'burning'..." means. This weakens you, as it consumes a lot of the body's energy. It both weakens your immune system and makes it also more indiscrimate about what it tries to shield you from. So you risk getting truly sick from other more serious causes, and you risk developing big allergies (an immune response to substances that are non-threatening).

The causal relationahip is clear. No need to wait till summer is over. "... a poorly vented septic odor can cause these responses ..." ; yes. The substance(s) is/are apparent as an odor, in a gas.

You need a master plumber. It may be helpful to draw and post the plumbing you can find, and get more help here, but you still need a master plumber.

Next winter you will be sicker.

david

In addition, I think you're toilet is toast. If it cracked and then began leaking, that indicates to me the toilet is cracked into the water chamber. Why it broke is something you need to determine before you put down a new one. A properly installed toilet's horn squishes into the wax ring to make the seal. You seat it by pushing it down with a slight amount of rocking until the base sets solidly on the floor. At that point, it can not rock or move. The flange bolts then should be snugged up, but not torqued tightly with a wrench. All they do is keep the potty setting where it belongs.

Rental House

You mentioned that this is a rental house. Your landlord/property manager should be addressing these issues. Have them replace the toilet and see if that helps. If not, you should be documenting everything so you can get out of your lease if they don't find and repair the underlying problem.

thanks, friends

we really appreciate your most helpful posts.

our plumber, chris, arrived this afternoon, in spite of a bad back. he is a master plumber. he's not nimble enough today to explore everything, but this weekend maybe he will be.

[we worked with chris when he re-plumbed the entire house we rebuilt and recently sold, (hence the rental).]

the easy part is that Yes, The Toilet Is Toast and he'll replace it when the owner says Okay. the flange hole is snugged closed for now.

the other stuff is not so easy.

the two exterior vents (one on either gabled end of the house - they look like dryer vents) are connected directly to the two bathroom fans - they do nothing to vent the sewer gas. they just vent bathroom odors.

there is, in fact, NO roof vent for the sewer pipe / sewer gases.

there are at least two pipes that appear to be sewer vent pipes. they go directly into the attic crawl space - they appear NOT to vent to the outside at all.

we cannot currently access the attic crawl space - there is no opening.

this weekend, we will remove a small portion of the ceiling in a closet so we can pop up and look about to see if these two pipes do, indeed, vent directly into the attic and not outside. our plumber is fairly sure this is the case.

also this weekend, chris will replace the toasted toilet as well as the flange on the second toilet will be replaced.

chris also thinks that the original dwelling may have been properly vented, but when the roof was replaced, the sewer pipe got trimmed and left beneath the new roof.

you see, we live in vermont, and 'code' is rather 'flexible' here - if you're the homeowner (not the bank - if you have no mortgage), you can plumb your dwelling pretty much any way you want - you do not have to use a master plumber.

as for the landlord ... well, he'll be paying the plumbers bill and the materials charges. it's unlikely he will care about venting it properly - when we moved in, we removed 8 or 9 solid air fresheners that were adhered under counters, sinks, behind toilets, etc. now we know why they were there. that's one way to deal with noxious fumes.

anyway, for the moment, we are leaving all the windows cracked open and the bathroom fans running.

thank you for helping me clarify the health aspect of this.

i'll keep you posted as to what we find when chris returns!

all best wishes to you all,

kavita

I don't know this for sure, but if the vents truely do terminate in the attic, a health inspector might really end up pulling the occupancy certificate for the building. It does not pass any local or national codes. If the landlord gives you grief, all the town, county, or state building inspector and complain, depending on who may be in charge (i.e., there may not be a town inspector).

If the vents terminate in the attic and are accessible, it's not a major operation to take them through the roof. Any handyman worth his salt will understand how to properly penetrate and flash the roof.

If yr landlord is a reasonable guy, I'd bet he'd spring for that to be done.

odor

Odors are the hardest things to trace and cure, but they are impossible to diagnose over the Internet. You need someone in the house to check all possible sources.

reasonable / unreasonable

greetings all,

thanks much for the further comments and suggestions.

here's an update:

- the landlords have approved the installation of a new toilet, as well as a new flange for the existing functional toilet. installation is tomorrow.

- they do not agree that it is necessary to have the sewer gas pipe vented through the roof. they believe the toilet repairs will sufficiently address the problem - at least enough so the smell will be less noticeable to us.

they feel the cost is unnecessary - our plumber estimates it will cost about $200, since he has to 'create' an opening to the now-inaccessible attic crawlspace, then locate the two existing pipes and vent it all properly - frankly, i think it's a bargain - unless the odor remains very potent after the toilets are repaired. they don't share our concerns about breathing sewer gasses.

- i am now in contact with the local health department, to ascertain what is 'on the books' insofar as code for proper venting in our town and in vermont overall.

thus far, it's a bit murky.

if a house is attached to town sewer service, then strict codes apply without question. this house does NOT have town water or septic.

if the house has private water & septic system (i.e., a dug well and leach field), it appears that the homeowner can pretty much do as s/he wishes when it comes to things like plumbing.

the local (town) health authorities have no jurisdiction over policing these private properties unless a complaint is filed - even then, the state laws restrict anything that can be construed as 'harrassment' of the homeowner's right to do as they wish on their own homestead.

nonetheless, the local town health official is concerned about the situation here and will do what he can to support our concerns about improperly vented sewer gasses and health issues. he had lots of creepy tales to tell, believe me.

- for now we leave windows open, the bathroom fans run almost constantly, and we're looking for another place to live. i'm grateful it's not winter.

in the end, this is vermont and this is rural life. sometimes it's is a real joy to have less building code to deal with, and sometimes less code also means folks will build things on the cheap and without consideration for health.

i'll be interested to hear what's on the state regulation books - that's what the local health inspector is exploring now. stay tuned!

all best to you, and thanks again,

kavita

I was under the impression that septic or sewer gasses could be dangerous - not just annoying. I'd bet it's 'safer' to have NO vent, then one that vents into a dwelling.

I wouldn't give up on this.

Sewer gases will make you sick. Some people are more sensitive than others. This is in addition to any bacteria or viruses that might waft out in the air from there. In the right concentration, it can be explosive.

official written info - ?

hi prashter and jim,

thanks for posting.

i started feeling ill within a week of living here (we moved in at the end of march), but could not figure out why i felt so lousy - burning eyes, sore throat, trouble waking up in the morning, headaches - but i couldn't figure out what might be causing it.

i also knew the house smelled 'off' to me - but it didn't smell like crap in a literal sense - it smelled more like decaying rodents (common in the springtime here!).

thank goodness the toilet cracked, because that's what led me to call our plumber, and to start wondering about the possibility that the house wasn't vented correctly. our plumber verified that it's not vented to the outside of the house, but to the attic.

so here we are.

no, i'm not going to give up on it altogether - the real estate agent handling the rental for the owners has asked the owners to approve payment for having the pipe properly vented by our plumber. and if the owners won't approve it, i will call in the health department.

the reality is, though, that where we live there are LOTS of dwellings that are improperly vented. the realtor had NO IDEA that improperly vented waste pipes pose any sort of health hazard. neither did the owner.

so we're trying to educate the owner and realtor, and mostly it's not a very popular topic because it means spending money.

does anyone know where i might find an 'official' document describing the risk of improperly venting the plumbing in a housing - ? it would help me describe the issue to the owners and the realtor without looking like a hysterical health freak.

thanks for your ideas,

kavita

The Bibles are the UPC (Uniform Plumbing Code) and the IRC (Int'l Residential Code). To my (layman) understanding, the IRC is a little less restrictive than the UPC. Local municipalities will use either of these as a base and then modify as needed.

You can find abbreviated versions of these in book stores for around $10-20. The latest vsn of the UPC is probably available at yr local library. Although, the owner is (to my understanding) only liable for his dwelling to be up to code AT the time of construction; unless he wasn't permitted, in which case he has to adhere to current standards.

Both the UPC and IRC are pretty clear that vents have to have min clearance from places people can come in contact.

So, what you need to be prepared is a refernece to the UPC/IRC citations on vents at the time the bldg was built and an affidavit from yr construction office that the owner is required to follow codes per the UPC/IRC (and to list appropriate mods).

look for case history examples

it is true that these Code books will say as much as shawn (prashster) has mentioned. You may want more clear proof of a link to danger. I would agree with that.

I cannot recall ever seeing a comprehensive list of recorded problems that sewer gases have caused. Problems reported, on a case by case basis, don't seem to get complied. (I guess the average person likes to forget about these kinds of incidents while the regulatory authorities already know about the dangers and don't need to have it more clearly documented.)

Over the next few days and weeks I'll look for a list, a study or a case history. Meantime, please do understand that sewer gases can be very dangerous (although not regularly), that their composition changes from season to season, and that they can even be odorless while still dangerous.

Don't lose sleep over this please but I will add that sewer gases have at times been both odorless and lethal - from what i know, as far as i know. I remember an incident at a big campsite: two people never came back up after going down into the access well to check on the pump for a big septic tank for their campsite, and never came back out. A combination of unusual conditions including a known to be non-Code installation.

david

discovery!

hi folks - thanks again for your comments. they've boosted my spirits and clarified my instinct.

here's a bit of news - an update - a.k.a., the plumber's discovery! i just sent this note to the realtor handling the property for the owners.

if i can get my hands on a camera, i'll try to get some photos of this for you all. whomever did the work definitely thought they were doing the right thing - you should see how much effort s/he put into creating this system!! so many elbows and pipes used! - but sadly, it wasn't a great idea at all.

_____________________________

the plumber, chris, came to the house today. he installed the new toilet and changed the flange on the old toilet.

chris also climbed up to an exterior access door on the north side of the house, and removed the door to see if the waste vent pipes would be visible.

happily, he discovered a wide open crawl space between the old roof (which is still in place) and the current roof which has a higher pitch. the bathroom fan vent pipes and the waste vent pipes are all visible and easily accessed.

also happily, the venting problem is obvious and easily remedied.

whomever did the venting for the bathroom ceiling fans did a wonderful job - they're vented beautifully, with 4" galvanized ducting (not the cheap flexible stuff!) leading from the bathroom ceiling fans directly to dryer vents on the gabled ends of the house.

the waste pipes are another story. someone took the trouble to put a system in place that they thought was a really good idea - but their thinking was flawed. it's too bad because they put a lot of whole lot of work into what they did. you can tell they wanted to do something well, because it was quite a feat to connect the PVC piping into the galvanized ductwork - they just had a flawed theory.

you see, the waste pipes vent directly into the bathroom ceiling fan ducting. as a result, any time the bathroom fans aren't running, the sewer gasses are coming directly into the house through the bathroom ceiling fans.

now, if the bathroom fans were both running all the time, this would be a fine system. for the past several days, we've been running both fans most of the time. whenever we turn off the fans for awhile, the smell returns.

this explains why, on a windy day, the smell got much worse. the dryer vents blow open and closed and the sewer gasses vent back into the bathrooms via the ceiling fan ductwork and fans. it also explains why, when only one bathroom fan is running, the odor appears in the other bathroom in spades. it's all about air flow and suction.

i thought we were going nuts, when cheryl and i both thought the smell seemed to be coming from the ceiling fans. it made no sense. but now it does make sense - perfectly.

i understand from what you said on the phone earlier, janet, that it appears most houses here in vermont have waste pipes vented into the attic, but that's not the case. chris says it's fairly uncommon that a house (unlike a camp) will have waste pipes vented directly into the attic these days.

chris said you cannot always see waste pipes vented, because they can be vented out the gabled end of a house - not through the roof. if the owners agree to it, chris will vent these waste pipes out the gabled ends of this house - not through the roof. he will do this because it will be less expensive for the kollmanns (given the current configuration of things in the crawlspace) for him to vent the waste pipes this way.

chris also said that there IS plumbing code for houses which are used as rental properties. unlike an owner-occupied private property with private septic and well water which does not have to meet code, the owners of a rental property must adhere to current plumbing code and regulations. chris is a master plumber and the wilmington water department contact, so i suspect he knows what he's talking about. i called the whitingham town health inspector, who confirmed this information.

i would like this remedied as quickly as possible. chris is ready to do the work upon approval. he estimates it will cost approximately $200. chris is doing all he can to save the owners money on materials and labor - he's very conscientious.

i look forward to hearing from someone soon regarding this. i appreciate your help and cooperation. i'm sorry for whatever inconvenience the expenses may create. however, given the gravity of the health concerns related to breathing sewer gasses, i would think the expense well worth the health benefits.
_____________________________________

so ... it's a done deal, i trust. we'll run the fans 'till chris returns to do the work - i would imagine within a day or two. in the unlikely event the owners refuse to approve the repair, we'll simply withhold the cost to us from the rent.

what a saga!

'till the next installment - thanks again -

kavita

Good news that the plumbing venting is easily remedied.

However, there's another problem...

The bathroom exhaust fan probably shouldn't be ducted to the dryer vent. There are a couple posts on this (I know bkz I wanted to do the same thing a year ago...)

https://terrylove.com/forums/search.php?searchid=488717

when is a dryer vent, not a dryer vent - ?

hi shawn,

thanks for your post - i can't seem to activate the link, but i'll keep searching for the post anyway - it sounds interesting.

thankfully, the vents (at either end of the house) connected to the ducting from the two bathroom fans LOOK LIKE dryer vents - but neither is hooked into the actual clothes dryer.

the actual clothes dryer vents through a piece of flexible tubing that exits directly into the basement - the basement walls and furnace are covered thickly with lint ... there's no exterior vent for the dryer, is what i'm getting at.

but i do appreciate your warning, nonetheless. it's good to know for the future.

really, really appreciate everyone's concern and input.

if i can get photos, just for show and tell, i will.

best,

kavita