looking for smallest water softener...

I only use about 80 gallons of water per day. The hardness of my water is about 127 ppm, which comes to about 7.5 gpg. Mostly calcium. This is enough to cause difficult-to-remove spotting of glass shower surround, glass dishes, etc. Not sure about clothes (not my forte).

I would like to install a softener (house has softener loop & drain) but after running the numbers, I realized the smallest I've been able to find (30,000 grains) would only need to regenerate every 40 days or so, assuming 80% efficiency.

I gather from other threads that it's best to regenerate at least every week (not sure why). But if I understand the calculations, I'd have to bump the hardness setting to 43 grains (!) to get weekly regeneration!

Does anyone make a whole-house system with 5k to 10k capacity?

David

Are you sure you are calculating everything correctly? 7 grains hardness usually doesn't constitute a need for a softener. Municipal water supplies usualy run from 6-12 grains hard, depending on what area of the country you live in. Are you running off of a municipal supply, or do you have a well? If in fact you do only have 7.5 grains and you still would like a softener, they do make 22,500 grain capacity or 3/4 cu ft. softeners. And it won't harm anything to have it regenerate more often if you want it to. You will just use a little more salt than you actually need to. Are you sure the 127 ppm wasn't tds (total disolved solids)?

mattbee24 said:

Are you sure you are calculating everything correctly? 7 grains hardness usually doesn't constitute a need for a softener.

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I'm pretty sure I calculated correctly. To get grains per gallon, just divide ppm by 17.1. Right? That comes to 7.4. My understanding is that 7.4 gpg is considered hard. Here's a chart from the U.S. Department of Interior:

grains per gallon
0 - 1 = Soft
1 - 3.5 = Slightly hard
3.5 - 7.0 = Moderately hard
7.0 - 10.5 = Hard
10.5 & up = Very hard

Municipal water supplies usualy run from 6-12 grains hard, depending on what area of the country you live in. Are you running off of a municipal supply, or do you have a well?

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I'm on a large private water service with multiple wells and treatment plants servicing the town.

All of the water in our area is calcium rich but the degree of hardness varies considerably. I'm not sure if the water service takes any steps to reduce hardness. In any case, most new homes are plumbed with a softener loop. But in my experience, most folks forego a softener and simply deal with the hardness. True, 7.4 isn't that bad. But my 2-yr old glass shower surround looks horrible and cleaners like Lime-Away and CLR don't help much. I'm considering replacing the glass but only if I get a softener. I haven't washed my car yet, but my neighbor showed me similar spots on his car windows.

If in fact you do only have 7.5 grains and you still would like a softener, they do make 22,500 grain capacity or 3/4 cu ft. softeners. And it won't harm anything to have it regenerate more often if you want it to. You will just use a little more salt than you actually need to. Are you sure the 127 ppm wasn't tds (total disolved solids)?

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I called today to find out hardness level, which varies by day and by plant. They said hardness for my neighborhood is currently 127ppm.

22,500 grains is still too big, but in case I don't find a smaller unit, can you tell me who makes this one? The reason I'm concerned about regenerating so often is not the cost of the salt, but rather that the pH might drop too much and the water might become aggressive.

thanks,
David

get the 30, 000 grain

I am sure that Gary Sussler would probably agree,

you are splitting hairs here ........I doubt that the cost saveings
is not worth the effort...if their actually would be any.

I dont think that they even make anything smaller than
a 30,000 grain unit....

master plumber mark said:

I am sure that Gary Sussler would probably agree,

you are splitting hairs here ........I doubt that the cost saveings
is not worth the effort...if their actually would be any.

I dont think that they even make anything smaller than
a 30,000 grain unit....

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As stated at end of last message, my concern has nothing to do with cost. It is my understanding that if you grossly oversoften the water (here, we're talking about possibly six times over), it can become agressive to plumbing fixtures. I'm not sure if there's any way to predict resulting pH level, but I'm all ears on this issue...

David

They have 15,000 grain units.

Cass said:

They have 15,000 grain units.

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who would that be?

You can't over soften water. No such thing.

as you increase the size of a softener all you do is reduce the frequency of regenerations.

Cass said:

You can't over soften water. No such thing. as you increase the size of a softener all you do is reduce the frequency of regenerations.

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I'm not sure what you're saying here. You suggest it's ok to oversize the softener by extending the period between regeneration cycles. But that's not the same as saying it's impossible to over-soften water. Clearly, if I extend the cycle period to 5 or 6 weeks, my water would not be over-softened.

Are you saying there's no problem in letting it go this long? I came across some other threads suggesting it's a bad idea to let a softener go much more than a week without regenerating. Any basis for this?

OTOH, if I let it regenerate every week, isn't it possible the water would lose its alkalintiy -- even to the point of becoming acidic?

David

Softening your water by removing the calcium will lower the PH of your water some. How much, I have no idea. I don't think it will be enough to be concerned about. When Gary S. shows up here he will be able to help you more with your questions.

If after talking with him you still want the 15,000 grain softner PM me.

One thing Gary may want to know is what the PH of your water is now.

You can't over-soften water. It kind of works like this: The hardness in your water has a positive charge. The media in your softener has a negative charge. As the water passes through the softener, the positive charge on the hardness attatches to the negative charge on the media and stays there. After a certain amount of water runs through the media, it is covered with the positive charge, and con't soften anymore. It regenerates with salt water. The salt knocks the positive charges off the media and goes down the drain. Now you have media with a negative charge again.
Regenerating more often than needed doesn't mess anything up, it just uses your salt in the brine tank up faster than it needs to.

Rain X and a squeegee will take care of your water spots on your glass shower door.

JohnD said:

Rain X and a squeegee will take care of your water spots on your glass shower door.

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I'll give that a try. I tried CLR and Lime Away without success. Someone also suggested slightly diluted vinegar. If I can clean the shower to my satisfaction (and it's not too much of a hassle), I'm not sure I'd fork out $600+ for a softener.

Regarding Matt's comments...
Thanks for clarifying. As it turns out, my confusion was from a previous experience with naturally soft well water. I've lived in three homes with wells, all of which had soft water, not uncommon where I used to live. In one case, the water was acidic. A water quality expert at a local university once told me very soft water is often acidic (aggressive). So I assumed that softening water would decrease pH. I just contacted my friend again and he clarified: what makes water acidic is a very low level of TDS. Soft water often has low TDS. He said an ionization softener won't reduce pH enough to worry about. OTOH, he said an RO filter will indeed create aggressive water.

Regarding my search for small capacity softener...
I found a small 15K Fleck system with a fully programmable valve that allows me to tweak the regeneration cycle. The dealer assured me that as long as we use water every day, a minimum regen cycle time of 12 or 14 days would be fine. He said if the house is unoccupied (e.g., no usage) for extended periods, then a shorter minimum cycle period of perhaps a week would help keep media from spoiling (not his exact words).

So I'm good to go. Thanks for the help.

David

Usually more than 7-9 days between regenerations will shorten the life of resins.

You may be good to go with what justalurker sold you or put you in touch with but... unless you are going to soften only that shower, a small softener isn't going to work well. For a softener to work, meaning always remove all the hardness, it has to be sized for the plumbing system it is installed on.

Any independent dealer can get you a softener in a 6" x 18" or larger tank. Tha's like an 1/8th cuft softener. That is a very small capacity at even the maximum salt dose of 15 lbs/cuft of resin.

In most cases "tweaking" is not a good thing, there is a formula to follow and tweaking usually means fooling with the length of time for the cycle positions of a regeneration. Too little or much time messes up resins and can reduce capacity which causes hard water before regeneration, especially if you increase the time for certain positions. If you shorten the time, the resin will fail due to incomplete backwash etc..

ALL softeners have an adjustable salt dose and that establishes the K of capacity. I.E a "32k" softener is a 1 cuft softener. Normally you can't regenerate more than 30k/cuft. And to get 30k, you need to set the salt at 15 lbs. Nine lbs get you 24k, 6 lbs gets 20k etc.. 30/15= 2000 grains/lb salt efficiency, 24/9=2666 grains/lb and 20/6 says 3333/lb.

For more on all this:
http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/softeners/sizingchart.htm

Ion exchange softening does not reduce pH. It may add a few ppm to the TDS due to the added sodium or potassium. 7.85 mg/l (roughly a quart) times the gpg of compensated hardness removed. Naturally soft water has low TDS, next to no hardness and low pH (acidic), making the water aggressive/corrosive. Softening does not effect alkalinity etc.

So what are you looking at specifically? And from where?

A 15k is usually a 1/2 cuft softener. It will have a SFR of roughly 4.5 gpm. Everytime you exceed 4.5 gpm flow through it, it will not remove all the 7 gpg of hardness. BTW, hardness varies widely from one area to another. Many cities around the US have 20-35 gpg of hardness. Also, if the city sends you harder water than you have today, your softener will not work correctly.

It sounds as if someone sold you what you wanted without getting into what you actualy need. Also, Fleck requires special Fleck control valve specific tools to replace the seals and spacers. They are the wearable parts.

Gary Slusser said:

...unless you are going to soften only that shower, a small softener isn't going to work well. For a softener to work, meaning always remove all the hardness, it has to be sized for the plumbing system it is installed on. Any independent dealer can get you a softener in a 6" x 18" or larger tank. Tha's like an 1/8th cuft softener. That is a very small capacity at even the maximum salt dose of 15 lbs/cuft of resin.

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Thanks for your response Gary. I appreciate input from all sources. You may have guessed I'm an engineer (HVAC), so I tend to over analyze. But I do like to understand what's "under the hood" of anything related to the home.

In most cases "tweaking" is not a good thing, there is a formula to follow and tweaking usually means fooling with the length of time for the cycle positions...

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I was referring to being able to DECREASE the number of days between regeneration, if the automatic setting ends up with more than 12 days or so. Apparently, not all volumetric controllers provide the ability to manage this?

So what are you looking at specifically? And from where? A 15k is usually a 1/2 cuft softener. It will have a SFR of roughly 4.5 gpm. Everytime you exceed 4.5 gpm flow through it, it will not remove all the 7 gpg of hardness.

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In my particular situation, 4.5 gpm wouldn't be an issue. And even if I ever exceeded 4.5 gpm, the implications that some hard water would be passed is irrelevant. Having said that, the Fleck I'm considering has a SFR of 8.5 gpm. You are correct, the resin capacity is 1/2 cu ft. The controller I'm looking at is the 1500 SE, which is volumetric.

BTW, hardness varies widely from one area to another. Many cities around the US have 20-35 gpg of hardness. Also, if the city sends you harder water than you have today, your softener will not work correctly.

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True. But anyone with a softener should monitor their water hardness. If it changes significantly, the softener settings should be adjusted accordingly. All I have to do is pick up the phone.

It sounds as if someone sold you what you wanted without getting into what you actualy need.

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Not true. Folks who know me know I tend drill down too far for that to happen. And in this case, the dealer I spoke with (no reason to mention names) provided his recommendations on minimum regeneration times based on usage profile. If I understood him correctly, his premise was that all other things being equal, the resin will need regenerating less often in a house with low but consistent daily usage than in a house with sporadic usage (e.g., days without any flow). Do you not buy into the idea that consistency has any bearing on minimum days between regeneration?

Also, Fleck requires special Fleck control valve specific tools to replace the seals and spacers. They are the wearable parts.

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Thanks for the heads-up. I'll be sure to inquire as to the price of these tools.

David

FWIW, today I used bleach to remove water spots on glass.

Half an ounce or so of 100% bleach on an already wet sponge. I wiped / spead it onto the glass door and panel in my shower and left the strong residue to evaporate while I went out this afternoon, and then when I got back I wiped off the whitish dried bleachy water residue with a damp cloth, and a very little elbow grease. The room smelled of bleach the whole time.

There is a lot i don't know here about water softness and hardness, so if what I have just added is not good, go gentle on me.

david

ginahoy said:

I was referring to being able to DECREASE the number of days between regeneration, if the automatic setting ends up with more than 12 days or so. Apparently, not all volumetric controllers provide the ability to manage this?

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You program based on the water use in gals/day and the hardness, iron and manganese if any. That produces the K of capacity per day and then multiply by the number of days between regenerations you want and then find the salt dose that is required in the volume and type of resin used to produce that K of capacity. That's how all softeners are and must be set up.

In my particular situation, 4.5 gpm wouldn't be an issue. And even if I ever exceeded 4.5 gpm, the implications that some hard water would be passed is irrelevant. Having said that, the Fleck I'm considering has a SFR of 8.5 gpm. You are correct, the resin capacity is 1/2 cu ft. The controller I'm looking at is the 1500 SE, which is volumetric.

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Are you are planing on only softening the shower water? If so you must do both the hot and cold or you will have hard water by mixing soft with hard, and 4.5 gpm SFR is not sufficient. No resin manufacturer will support 8.5 gallons continuous service flow rate for a 1/2 cuft volume of resin. Also, you can't run hot water through a regular softener, you need a hot water model.

The Fleck 1500 is a brass valve and a side mount valve; it hangs in plumbing on the side of the tank. Why would you want a side mount control valve? The only use for one is for a softener requiring draining for freeze protection over the winter in a summer home etc.. They require a tank with a bottom outlet and usually that will be an FRP type tank which is more expensive than a regular tank that you can use a regular valve on.

True. But anyone with a softener should monitor their water hardness. If it changes significantly, the softener settings should be adjusted accordingly. All I have to do is pick up the phone.

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Not really. By the time you measure more hardness, the softener isn't removing all the hardness in the water and you'll have to do certain things to get all the resin regenerated again. But to change the regeneration schedule data, you simply reprogram the contol valve, no tweaking of anything like cycle position times.

If I understood him correctly, his premise was that all other things being equal, the resin will need regenerating less often in a house with low but consistent daily usage than in a house with sporadic usage (e.g., days without any flow). Do you not buy into the idea that consistency has any bearing on minimum days between regeneration?

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Just the opposite, daily use causes the need for less time between regens than not but... infrequent use causes the resin to slough off hardness so you get a slug of hard water periodically. The water goes through equalibrium meaning hardness comes off the resin bead sites back into the softened water making it hard. Industry standard is once per week regeneration and most dealers will hold to that for residential softening; a few don't.

You're welcome. The tools are pricey for what they are. You should look at the Clack WS-1.