Kitec class action lawsuit- 30,00 defective homes in las vegas

I don`t understand why there isn`t a major scandal in the las vegas area as upwards of 50,000 homes maybe affected by plumbing failures that can cost thousands of dollars to fix.

It is barely getting any news coverage - oh well buyer beware - you better ask if kitec has been used in your house

i sure wouldn`t buy a house with this product in it.

See link....
https://terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8349&highlight=class

So far there haven't been any failures......

This is about the fittings not the pipe. See the thread above and this link from the homeowner website in the areas affected (from 12/2006):

"Due to the unique quality of water in the area, chemical reactions may occur that cause these brass fittings to clog over time. In recent months, some homeowners in Sun City Anthem have reported decreased water flow in their homes, believed to have resulted from corrosion of Kitec brass fittings. To date, corrosion of Kitec fittings has not been found to have caused leaks or any problems other than reduced water flow in any homes in Sun City Anthem."


http://www.anthemwebs.com/Documents/anthem_compendium061223.htm

Alan, did you do a search on this topic in the forums?

victims everywhere with

what was a sure-fire "oh it's better and cheaper than copper" sales pitch.

Now we've got the "it's the fittings, not the pipe" defense I won't buy.

Isn't that what PB suffered from, the fittings?

You mention BlueMax in my town and a few certain plumbers get a hard on to get a piece of that lingering class action lawsuit money to replace to copper.

Home inspectors fail inspections every time if that pipe is visible/known of in the ground to the house.

It all wears the same shame in my opinion. People who are victims by circumstance and the insurance/property damage claims they present is insurmountable.


I unearthed a victim yesterday; customer wanted me to troubleshoot an electric water heater.....it falls into the window that those plastic dip tubes were crumbling and falling apart, costing the efficiency of the tanks.

I'll know for sure next week when I replace the tank and remove the cold water inlet to see the dip tube. I pulled out one last month that the dip tube was 1" long, that's it.

it's just information, not a defense, to explain what Serge did about fittings versus pipe.

Did you hear about the copper pipe that got completely eaten away by the undiluted urine from waterless urinals?

Every system has its downfalls, and copper is still a good system. It took 50 years before copper overcame resistance to installing it. It had problems at first.

david

Like it's been said before, it's never the pipes fault.


Waterless Urinals suck. Maintenance is the key to those and even though they save water, those who have to maintain them don't most times and between the smells and that issue with eating copper out, it's predictable.

Urine and copper don't get along, urine doesn't travel through a copper water line which is not what this subject matter is all about,

Plastic Pipe Failures Costing Millions.

My 3/4" copper water service from 1964 is still doing a good job supplying water to my home, without error and without failure.

You can't say that about plastic water lines. They get hard and brittle after a few short years.....

Copper will leach into the water slowly over many years.

Lack of copper in the diet will cause your hair to turn gray / white.

Drink lots of water from copper pipes.

Plastic piping is contributing to graying hair problems in this country.

We need a law to outlaw plastic pipe.

Whos with me on this....

You know it Cass

Just BlueMax

PolyButelene

Kitech

Plastic Dip Tubes in the 90's

And any other host of plastic piping that fails over the "expected" lifetime.

There are condos over in fort thomas, kentucky that are having pipe splits dealing with Qest sp? piping.


I can live with the gray hair, I keep the ladies interested.


Well the ugly fat ones.

No one can sell their condos and they are using pex to retrofit in sections by taking it up and over between the false ceilings.

Copper has its draw backs.

pin holes

dialetric problems from the ground

freeze bursts

incorrect electric connections making the pipe live

copper theft because of its high price

I know you like copper Cass

Cass said:

Copper has its draw backs.

pin holes

dialetric problems from the ground

freeze bursts

incorrect electric connections making the pipe live

copper theft because of its high price

Click to expand...

But,


When you go to Cincinnati and look in those 70+ year old buildings with working copper water and drain systems, tell me the drawbacks. Tell me why they are operating error free, knocking a plumber out of a job because the pipe is wearing like an iron rail in a train station.


Pinholes are caused by aggressive water or grounding issues, NOT the pipe itself like plastic has formed a solid opinion on.

Dielectric problems that were addressed by codes in nearly every state to enforce dielectric unions at the water heater as a way to break continuity, whether they work or not.

Freeze bursts are a guarantee, just like CPVC and PEX after repeated freezes. No pipe is foolproof/oblivious to freeze without product damage somehow.

Can't blame copper for electrical mishaps

and copper cannot be blamed for it's high value whether in a home or in the back of a pickup to the scrap yard.

The thieves are the problem, not the copper. Just like guns don't kill people, it's the people aiming the gun pointing and firing.


Anything else?

I'm a loaded gun on this subject


A great debate of which is better....and even though one type of pipe is not good for ALL situations, I'm watching even another line of plastic piping go into the world class of mass destruction with someone (mfg.) doing rigorous testing of miles of piping systems before introducing to the general public,

only to find out that they didn't clearly test all possibilities involving the new fast and easy systems.

I'm surely not the only guy on the internet who has sympathy for these homeowners victimized by poor quality choice am I?

At least the search engines across the web pick up on my defense.

Kitec Plumming

There is a class action and Sun City Del Webb has offer a cash allowance to repair in Henderson NV.

Sup sup all, this forum kinda runs hand in hand with johnbridgs tile forum, its where I first heard of this forum and have since made many trips here, since most all my questions are answered just from searching for them my need to register and post some has not been nessasary - I do appriciate this forum being here and thought id say Hi.

Since I live and this topic has to do with las vegas I thought id make a post,
I am NOT a plumber but do fix all my friends and familys plumbing, drywall, electrical, wood floors, paint, anything wood working, pools, brickwork, welding, computers, remote control cars, planes & helicopters, ac, swampcollers, tile, shower pans & bath - but rarly get invited over to dinner till somthing breaks how ever I might soon become a plumber with all the work here in this vally ( was a great town before califonia moved here ) I was raised and have lived here since 1962 and have seen it go from a 30 minut bike ride from one end to the other to what it is today.

My parents house 45+ yrs old ( all Galv pipe ) has had only one major leak repair - My 10Yr old ( all copper pipe - supplied by a community well ) house has had 3 major leaks 2 were started as the infamous pinhole leaks - the current 1 being under slab, well water has been tested and ph is 8.2' fortunatly for me I am able to repair my own problems or atleast bandaid the plumbing ones.

Ive recently have been looking into plastic pipe and have had my reserves about it since the Pb problems a few yrs back altho I personaly was not affected at my bussines that had it instaled from a remodel - but now that this new underslab problem has surfaced ( 1" main supply line ) befor the water conditioner that was put in to help with the pinhole leak problem that was only on the cold water pipe side - for now, I have just by-passed the affected pipe with wirsbo and a couple shark bites to keep the water running and the wife happy ( On the side im sure she has added this to her just another reasons to leave las vegas list ).

I have looked into the PEX race thats been going on and have read all I can find about it and to this point pertaining to their connetion method there is 2 types ive found, ---> crimp compression such as Zurn - expand then crimp compression such a Uponor/Wirsbo.

To be honest, to me both their connection systems seem "Archaic" , I feel a little more safe with the expand & crimp compression Uponor/Wirsbo type but see they changed their name which doesn'd make me feel better about them, I love the warrentys 25 yrs - if there still in bussiness. currently im reasearching Rehau with their everloc system and found their unavailable in las vegas due to all the lawsuits ( reason givin during my phone call to them ).

Personaly I belive there is apllication for both plastic and copper in a home and any plumbing incorrectly matched or incorrectly installed will be an issue at some point, I refuse to get in to the plastic is the best or copper is best argument seen every where - Childish at best , both have advantages and dis-advantages.

Reading many posts about Pex type piping on this site has been a bit of a task with much enthusasm and emotions from posters, im stumped finding info about problems with direct burrial of it.

I would appriciate if possible any factual information about current plastic systems that would serve my current situation best.

!!!!!!
I intend to replace the under slab ( copper ) 1" main with a permanent plastic system that will be burried in place - going over head in a vegas summer is unapealing to me.

Thank you in advance for all information .

go overhead if you can

Going over head is safer for re-fit jobs...


Putting the copper in the slab works great.....IF

We did hundreds of homes back in the early 80s
and the only thing I insisted in doing is running armaflex
covering on all the underground hot water lines...

we have never had or even heard of a problem

If you must do it in the slab, and you want it to last
forever, use the L or K soft copper and spend another
100 -150 bucks for rubber aramaflex on both hot and cold pipes.


If you must use PEX underground, and this is your own personal home...
use the WIRSBO with the expansion type rings....
and if it were my home

why not spend the extra hundred dollars and protect all this pex stuff
under the concrete with ARAMAFLEX too?


It cant hurt one bit and that extra expence is really only one night out
pissing your money away gambling in Las Vegas.

Aramaflex would definitely help with many problems of direct burial in soil, looking at the photo of 1" main coming up threw the slab is all corroded around the joints I was thinking FLUX I could be wrong though, cutting out the pipe section below the manifold found to be corroded inside.

I wish I knew what caused this! all other pipes & joints look healthy but may be corroded inside them as well and haven't leaked yet.

Did I mention my life suks.

your life sucks worse than you realize

that is not armaflex coating those pipes
comming out of the floor in your pictures
...that is plain old cheap duct tape

and we have run into many situations where that stufff dont hold up
very long at all .... we have reapired many of those leaking at the tape...

they use it to come up through the floor but their is nothing in the gravel..


what might be causeing this is aomething like an
electrallisys action with the outgoing main line...

it dont look that bad...

Vegas plumbing problem more complex than 1st thought

The info below is from www.scaview.org, and indicates very clearly that the problem in Las Vegas is related to water chemistry i.e. brass comonents made by all manufacturers seem to be having a problem.

The letter below was sent to Sun City Anthem residents recently alerting owners to problems with another manufaturers brass fittings.


March 22, 2007

[Homeowner
Address
City, State Zip]

Dear Homeowner:

Approximately 5,300 homes built by Pulte/Del Webb in Las Vegas and delivered to homeowners between May 2002 and January 2006 were constructed using the REHAU brand plumbing system.

It is believed that characteristics of the local water supply in Las Vegas may cause damage to these systems over time.

Pulte/Del Webb plans to perform repairs to the plumbing systems of all 5,300 homes.

Pulte/Del Webb believes REHAU systems were installed in homes that were delivered to homeowners in the following communities with closing dates during these periods:

Sun City Anthem, June 1, 2003 to December 13, 2005… 2,142 homes;
Sun City Aliante, March 21, 2003 to September 29, 2005… 1,140 homes;
Club Aliante, January 10, 2005 to November 30, 2005… 180 homes;
Solera at Anthem, August 13, 2003 to January 9, 2006… 900 homes;
Vialetto, April 25, 2003 to March 15, 2005… 168 homes;
Serenata, May 27, 2003 to December 31, 2004… 147 homes;
Wyeth Ranch, December 16, 2002 to December 30, 2004… 137 homes; and
Anthem Country Club, May 1, 2002 to May 20, 2004… 506 homes.
In the next few weeks, Pulte/Del Webb will contact individual homeowners and begin making arrangements for repairs. It is the Company’s intention to complete the work as expeditiously as possible, in order to minimize disruption to individual homeowners.
The Company is in the process of establishing a special website where you can learn more about the repair process and you can receive periodic updates. Homeowners will receive a separate communication about the website, including URL and password, shortly.
Thank you,

Customer Relations
Pulte Homes/Del Webb

An earlier comment:
"I feel a little more safe with the expand & crimp compression Uponor/Wirsbo type but see they changed their name which doesn'd make me feel better about them, I love the warrentys 25 yrs - if there still in bussiness."

Still in bussiness... according to their website, they have been in bussiness for a long long time...

http://www.uponor.com/about/about_6_1.html


Paul

In 1999 - 2012 I wrote articles for an Australian website.. Here is one of them



Far be it for me to say "I told you so" but here we go with another plastic piping failure.

Now I am wondering who decided plastic should even be considered for heating?

I was under the impression that ANYTHING that is a good conductor of electricity is also a GREAT conductor of heat.

I want to see who is pushing this concept and who is also pushing "basic business advice" and what is lacking in both these thoughts.

First of all, I still think radiant heating is a good system as I have worked on systems over 80 years old. What this old system had going for it was a common-sense installation.

The US Postal Service has a main GPO in Manhattan using both hydronic and steam heating in this one building. The key to the steel pipe schedule 40 slab heating is simplicity in installation.

It is called "Ceiling Rads."

The old-timers had the common decency to worry about the next generation of plumbers and made the piping accessible for INSPECTION and REPAIR. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know the following:

Cement is a poor conductor of electricity and THUS a poor conductor of heat, otherwise, we would be cooking with stone pots, Correct?

These old-timers installed these Ceiling Rads on the ceiling. It seems they liked TRUTH and honesty in those days and plumbers did plumbing. They had real pride in their workmanship.

The heat from these ceiling radiators warmed the floor above them BUT because the floors are thick the hot air was also forced to "circulate" down as the rads threw off more heat than the concrete could absorb (floors bad conductor; air better huh).

Now when the plastic fiasco hit, everyone was caught holding the bag and radiant heating took a beating.

Now the contractors are holding the bag (told you so) As the manufacturer's product wasn't installed properly according to the manufacturer. As heating guys are NOTORIOUS for not having codes or licenses or any Bonifide apprenticeship training (unlike steamfitters/Plumbers/Gas fitters)

Suppose the "heating experts" thought about this.

On the basement slab, leave NO pipes buried but install long-lasting Cast Iron baseboard all along the outside walls.

Separate Zone as you don't want to mix Copper and Cast Iron in the same zone, as the copper gives up the heat much faster, But CI heat holds longer.

(Plastic giving up heat?? OK then why have plastic on metal handles? COMMON sense).



Then on the floor above install Quality Great conducting copper tubing between the joists. Put fiberglass with aluminum foil under this copper tubing to reflect the heat up towards the BAD conducting flooring materials.

Now if this piping system should leak, guess what folks? We have accessibility.

Think about it, this piping is just like the water piping, with no vapor barriers needed, no special "training" no NOTHING. Just easy to maintain/inspect systems.

The post office ceiling rads are black steel supply lines and cast iron radiators. It sure outlasted the state of the ART plastic stuff with NO SPECIAL training. Seems the dead guys knew something about integrity in installations as THEY were PROUD of their work and didn't try to hide it or bury it. They actually wanted folks to see their work of art.

When I walk through these hallways, looking up, I marvel at how these folks installed systems that last and last before we put a bloke on the moon.

I still use schedule 40 black pipe for ALL my gas and steam work. I use copper TYPE "L" strictly for my hydronic heating even though I could get away legally with M tubing.

As more and more "state of the art" systems fails, we all lose credibility.

The general public are the ones I feel so sorry for because they trusted someone to "do the right thing," and now they are sitting on pins and needles waiting for their heating system to fail also.

The CDA does ask about the pH values of the water flowing through their piping.

We in New York are lucky as we had the Levitt houses failures to learn from But now we have state of the art high tech failures happening that ONLY a "plumber" can make right.

All we do is isolate the underground (slab) piping system and run proven quality materials like black steel with good old cast iron longevity baseboard.

Common sense will prevail in the accessibility of anything mechanical. Would anyone buy a car where you can't get at any of the piping or electrical components?

Long live black steel and copper tubing and the honest term "plumbers". Still a very respected profession.

Sylvan,
Do you have any more MasterPlumbers articles you can post on the forums? Good stuff.

If I remember correctly, that problem occurred at least 30 years ago, and was being dealt with at that time.