How to keep pipe from freezing? Drain or drip?

How to keep pipes from freezing again? Drain or drip?

As a result of a kitchen remodel last month, I have a small unaccessible unheated section (between the outside and the heated kitchen) on my 1st floor where my hot and cold pipes run upstairs from the basement to a spare bathroom.

Since the kitchen remodel, these pipes have frozen twice. I know I need to insulate them better somehow but in the meantime what is the best way to keep them from freezing?

1) Keep a slight drip from both the hot and cold
2) Turn off the shutoff valves (in the basement) to that bathroom Preferable since it's a spare bath.

I tried number 2 last night before going to bed, but somehow when I woke up, the pipes were frozen. I am guessing that is because although I shut off the valves, I didn't completely drain the pipes?

If so, how would one completely drain the pipes so there is no water in them to freeze?
Do I have to open other faucets further downstream from where the bath pipes T off?
Is there a secret to truly clearing water out of pipes?

Thanks in advance!!!

Just turning the water off will not protect the pipes from freezing, they still have water in them. Here's your options. Turn the water off and drain the pipes. May be difficult to drain them, so that may or may not be a good option. Put some heat into the space. An electric heat lamp would probably be enough. Finally, let the water run a trickle at night. Wrap the pipes with heat tapes and plug them in at night. Please note, just insulating will likely not be enough. Insulation only stops (actually slows) the transfer of heat. It will not provide any warmth, so if there is no heat in the space to begin with, the pipes will still freeze.

I'm hoping the shut off valves have a drain knob to it. I know other shutoffs I put in last year did, but the kitchen contractor put these in. I'll have to check.

If they don't have the drain knob, how would one drain that line? Won't gravity take the water back down the way the city pressure pushed it up?

I am going to warm that space up come spring time so I'm looking for a short term fix until it warms up.

I don't think I'll be able to heat that area, it's closed off (cabinets and backsplash cover any possible entrance to it), and I can't get in there to wrap heat coils unless I take the siding off the house and go in from the outside. Suddenly this is getting very messy.

Thanks,

IF the valve has a drain, then yes, turning it off AND opening the valves at the top to allow air in would drain the lines. If the pipes have any reverse slope sections, it will not all drain out.

The valves with drain ports might be a pain it gives you another place for it to leak...you might want to plumb in something like a boiler drain at the bottom of the run or you could use a ball valve, t'ed into the line down low. If you used a boiler drain, you could put a hose on it to direct it where you want to easier.

If you just turned to water off, where would it go? You've got it shut off on both ends capping the water in place. Just like when you put your finger over a straw, the pipe will hold the water until you open up both ends.

drain

If you turn the valves off, then there is no way for gravity to drain the pipes unless there is a drain provision after the valve. Closing a valve and not draining the pipe can cause even more damage because that completely prevents the expansion, as the water freezes, from going anywhere except into breaking the pipes.

Well I finally got around to posting back here... I checked the valves and they do NOT have any type of drain knob so there goes that idea if I wanted to do it.

Luckily we didn't have any 5 degree days since so no more frozen pipe. My plan for the spring is to take off the siding and go in from the outside. I'll stuff the area with R25 or something like that..or maybe blow in insulation. I know just insulation won't be ideal but there's just no way to heat the space. I figure with no insulation the space only got down to 28 degrees. With it stuffed with insulation, it's doubtful it'll ever get below 32 degrees. Agree?

One more....Should I bother with heat wraps or coils IF I am able to get them in there when I go in from the outside? The problem is when they end up dying 10 years down the road (not sure how long they would likely last), there's no way to get back in there to replace them anyway...

Thanks for all the responses.

alternate access?

You stated that "cabinets and backsplash" cover any access. Would it be feasable to cut out an access panel in the back of the cabinet. This might give you access to heat wraps/tapes, and insulation. You might even consider putting something like a cold air return grate (in place of the solid back of the cabinet and wall material) in so any heat from inside the cabinet can give some additional warmth to the area with pipes.

Just FYI, I have an unheated crawl space with water supply lines running through it. I installed thermostatically controlled heat tapes and insulation wrap in 1991, and both are still functioning fine.

When we have had power outages, I allow both lines to drip slightly to prevent freezing.

Jim

We never put pipes in an outside wall. Even with insulation they are subjected to freezing. Like asking for trouble. Can you reroute them through the bottom of the cabinet ? The grate idea would be a start.