My Tankless Experiment

[jay_sfb]

Right...I already looked into a SETS (made by Noritz if I recall...tried looking it up and nothing for sets...may be discontinued?!)

The website listed from the DIY program is www.buytankless.com

The supplier told me he was better off with his draft type, weighing all costs and the fact that electric tankless's aren't nearly as good as the gas.

And so the reason why I am so interested in this experiment. I have gas and would consider having the service upgraded for a tankless if I could get a sense of how much it costs to operate compared to storage.

[GrumpyPlumber]

The website listed from the DIY program is www.buytankless.com


And so the reason why I am so interested in this experiment. I have gas and would consider having the service upgraded for a tankless if I could get a sense of how much it costs to operate compared to storage.

Jay, usually the only upgrade is cutting in a 3/4" line for the tankless, unless you're going with a smaller unit which is a 1/2" feed like the existing tank type (I wouldn't recommend...flow isn't good on those).
If you have a 3/4" gas main and other fixtures already connected, like a boiler...the you will have to upgrade.
Thank you for the link...I did a websearch for "Sets" and came up empty.

[master plumber mark]

Though I don't think our water is that bad, I'm looking into this.
Also, any particular model/models that applies to?

It applies to ALL makes and Models..

get out a magnifying glass and read the fine print on one
sometime ...........

the one that was tested by Bradford white in that article
popsted on my site was made by Rennia for Bradford White.
..and tested sometime in 05....



Along lake Michigan, I have heard that the water
is about a .03 of hardness.........that is pristene.......

The midwest has nasty water from .18 all the
way up to off the scale on well water....
our water is from the bowells of the earth


Other parts of the country have good and bad.....

people dont realize that what works great in
Oregon, Texas or Georgia with luke-warm water
all year long might not work well with incomming
water almost so cold its slush.. in the winter time.....




of course they dont realize it till its too late


Regionally.....their are too may things to factor into a
" generic equation" as how well it will work
all across the USA.


here is a little equation for you........


take the lowest temp for incomming water
take the hardness--factor in the expence of how often needing to de-lime the unit

take the volume flow rate necessary
add the install costs
tripple the cost over a tank type....

then figure out what you are gonna save over
10 years??

Coldness x Hardness x Volume x install costs x $$$ x 10years


=== ??????




now does this have your little head spinning??????


My motto....
if you cant convince them with facts
baffle them with .........
...

[GrumpyPlumber]

now does this have your little head spinning??????

If you could just tell the better half that...I'd be all set.

[Alex47]

I had a Noritz N-69M-OD installed a couple of months ago.

I am remodeling the utility/mud room, and getting the old heater out of there gives me room for front loader washer and dryer on the outside wall.

This is the only part of the remodel I wanted to hire out. Utility company put in the new gas meter for no charge (2lb service). I had a local mechanical contractor come out and install the heater, new gas line for dryer for 2000 including the heater. Federal tax credit is $300, local utility gave me a check for 350 for putting in an efficient gas heater. So for 1500-1600, I got more space in the house, and a more efficient unit.

The past 2 months, my gas bill has been about 40% of what it normally would be (most of the summer we use the grill, so hot water is the only real gas use). This only = about 15.00 month in savings, but:

1500-1600.00
1) More space in a house where space is at a premium. (This was really the biggest plus for me, any utility savings is just gravy)
2) Lower gas bill.
3) Hot water lasts forever.
4) Remote is cool.
5) Will enable me to solve the problem of a dryer on an inside wall with a 30' vent (2 sharp angles). This should also cut down utilities.

I had a 2 plumbers give estimates on relocating a tank heater about 10' into the garage (they did not do tankless, for some reason). They both wanted to put in a new vent (I would be responsible for flashing, etc. at roof). For this, and re-routing plumbing and gas, their bids were about the same (1450 and 1600).

For me this decision was a no-brainer, and I don't regret it at all.

**Outside unit requires no venting, which saves on the materials/install.
**There is a yearly maint. to do, but really amounts to the equivalent of cleaning out a really big coffee machine.

The one thing I do think about is waiting on repair parts when it breaks down. I'm in north central Florida though, so 6 months out of the year, I can probably rough it if I need to.

[molo]

Please tell us what the annual maintenance consists of..

TIa,
Molo

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Less than 5% of tankless owners can effectively maintain their product.

Less than 1% of tankless owners can accurately diagnose and troubleshoot, repair their product.

Out of the 10% of tankless owners out there, 8% comment in public view of message boards/forums of their product.


That leaves 92% of the susceptible viewing and buying public to believe and see everything they hear about these.....thinking their application works in any area across the states. That's just not true.

Want proof of these numbers? Gauge every plumbing forum on the internet of the percentile of related topics regarding these products over the all subject matters covered. You'll find a great deal of speak of those trying to sell it....then it leads down quickly to the over analyzers with their goofball statistics and equations......then you got the actual product owners. That's a small fraction but it's growing. I love the fact that these "green" followers are willing to spend hours, days sitting looking out their front window waiting, dreaming for the UPS man to bring their control module or "special part" from china or korea to get their buzz box up and back running while the wife is contemplating signing the divorce decree. Keep up the good work!!

In my area the water temperature incoming can get as low as 42 degrees.

Alex47's situation is ideal; ground temperature is higher by far....the tankless works less, has less degree of rise to overcome. Also....it can be an outside mount which would never fly in KY OH IND.

Sell me a sow's ear and I'll make you a purse.

[George R]

HA! Someone wake up Master Plumber Mark. I'm sure he'll want to chime in again.

[frenchelectrican]

Hello guys i am not sure where i will fit in here but anyway here we go now

I know few of you did comment about the tankless electric water heaters units

let me reflect my experince as electrician working on few resdentailas and commercal area as well .

i know there are quite few diffrent size on tankless electric waterheater but IMO it should be classifed as point of use or whole house useage it can reflect the diffrence how it can be used i do understand about the gaz fired units.

I will give you a quick example here one whole house tankless electric water heater this is manufactred by Bosch

I know this is petty good unit IMO but the shocker for most comuster is the hookup on electrical side that what threw them off the curve

If i recalled it right one unit did rated at 24 KW [ same power as 3 average sized stove running full power at the same time ] and the comuster brought it and one plummer hook up but he refuse to touch the electrical side which i dont blame him for that because the complex of connections.

anyway this home have exsting 200 amp service and the whole house tankless waterheater requied 120 amp total [ 3 -40 amp circuits ] [ the real load is total of 24 KW = 100 amp @ 240 volts ]
and to get it working propely i talk to the comuster to hevey up [ upsizeing ] to 400 amp service which it was not cheap it was about 6500 bucks for new breaker box and metering box and related assorted wiring etc.

got it running it was working fine for while but the serious side effect was the lights in the house was flickering when the tankless heater cycling to match the flow demand of the water supply and it did took out the powercompany transfomer out of service by overloading pretty bad that transforemer was sized 25 KW and it was serving at least 6 house on this one and it burn up by overloading pretty hard .

after few months the owners were not happy with it they were not really saving any cost at all seems it was about the same rate as old storage tank heater was and asked me to remove it and they converted to gas tankless and seems they get better performaice than electric unit did dish out

if you have more quetion related to electric tankless waterheater please do post it here

Merci , Marc

[master plumber mark]

WOW...
You are saying that some fool spent that much just
to upgrade their electrical panel to use one of those
electric water heaters???

and to top this off they already had gas in their home???

were they planning on living in that home till 2099??
It would probably take that long just to break even..

Was this Electrical Tankless system something that someone
sold them of just some half-cocked idea that found on the internet???

I bet the plumber that installed the heater
tried his best to talk them out of this --but they would not listen.






I am sorry that I have been draggign my feet on this
tankless experiment...
the summers has been too hot and I have been too busy..


I got the nortz 6.9 gallon tankless heater, but I dont think
its going to be big enough for my house, still trying to get a larger one

I will try to get myself in high gear and buy the gas meter to see what I do use every month on the heater I presently own.

[Cass]

Glad to hear things have picked up for you.

[master plumber mark]

Cass its still pretty slow....

more like we are in a holding pattern waiting on
someone in government to finally decide on what property taxes will be set at ....



the problem in the state right now is no one has any confidence in the leaders...
both in the city of Indy and on the state wide front..

The mayor of INDY has gotten people so mad that
he presently has 6 full time body guards..



so no one is spending a dime...



I should have said ..
I have been too lazy to work on my experiment..

[Alex47]

I'm not trying to sell anybody on anything, but I'm not apologetic for the fact that so far, I really like the system.

Yes, it's warmer outside in Florida, and climate should inform a decision to install an outside heater....that's why I included that detail.

Maybe 4-5 years from now I'll have a different opinion, but right now....I'd do the same thing for sure.

My choice was primarily made for the following reasons:

1) cost compared to moving a standard tank heater
2) could the tankless keep up performance-wise
3) I needed that inside space for my dryer install, there was no other location suitable.

Again, this is just my case, and my thoughts on #2 could change....but so far, no complaints.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Alex47


Wasn't accusing you of selling.....I clarified you was an actual product owner.

I just make a point to let it be known that what works in florida doesn't always work in KY or OH or IND.......or any area or region that has extreme low/cold weather temperatures and the buying public needs to be aware of this legit consideration.

And if you have hard water? < Another consideration of how much those compartments lime up and rob the efficiency over time or between cleaning intervals.

The majority of people in my area when it comes to hot water..........replace/repair the water heater when it doesn't provide. Maintenance of any kind is usually non-existent.

That's why I see simple leaks above the tank that literally ate a hole in the top of the tank.....left for years.

It's a non-priority.....just like a lot of things in the home. There are "some" though that are attentive to their mechanical systems....and like I said...they make their opinions known.

This is the educated public on these matters at hand. The rest mainly run with it as an expenditure when it breaks and forget about it for another 5 to 13 years with them being the first ones to call you the second no hot water is in the equation.

[master plumber mark]

I apologise that I
have been dragging my feet on this experiment ...

due to delays trying to get
the man on E-bay to accept a busines check for
his gas meter....still have not got the meter...

going to have to get a money order
from the POST OFFICE ONLY to please the s.o.b.

cant give him a bank draft , ect ect...

so once I jump these hurdels, we are game on again