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Thread: My Tankless Experiment

  1. #31
    Licensed Grump GrumpyPlumber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jadnashua
    I went with an indirect, since I had the boiler anyways...nominally 94% efficient.
    Another EXCELLENT alternative...done a few of those this year too....gas co offers the same rebate as tankless too.
    The advantage is the two following have a lifetime warranty:
    Superstor, Boilermate...I'd guess you did the Superstor...just a hunch
    "The biggest regrets we have in life are the chances we never took."

  2. #32
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    SuperStor Ultra with the smallest Buderus...so far, so good.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  3. #33
    Licensed Grump GrumpyPlumber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jadnashua
    SuperStor Ultra with the smallest Buderus...so far, so good.
    And of course...using a Taco SR-501 for the priority (ok...maybe a 504 if you have only two other zones)
    "The biggest regrets we have in life are the chances we never took."

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumpyPlumber
    That alone wouldn't sell them...the avg water htr is 60-65% efficient...the tankless's get upwards of 84%...when running.
    I did a lot of research on HE direct-vents and tankless a few months ago when I was first scoping my renovation. The most consistent criticism of tankless was the risk of no heat/inconsistent heat at low flow. In your opinion, is this overstated?

    I also ran across the AO Smith Vertex PV. They claim 90% efficiency (versus 67% for their own Promax line). My plumber checked with his distributor, and the price is nearly double the next highest model. Still, I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with the Vertex, or if their claim is even valid.

    Great discussion, BTW. I like the idea of tankless, but was discouraged when I learned about low flow performance, as well as the calculated savings vs an HE direct vent gas-fueld storage model (apparently, the total OPEX of the storage is still lower over the long term than tankless, especially when factoring in the unit and installation cost differences). This is why I am also interested in seeing the results of the "noble experiment"; it would be nice to have some hard, real-world numbers to point to for reference.

    With thanks,

    Jay
    Last edited by jay_sfb; 06-28-2007 at 08:41 PM.

  5. #35
    Licensed Grump GrumpyPlumber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jay_sfb
    I did a lot of research on HE direct-vents and tankless a few months ago when I was first scoping my renovation. The most consistent criticism of tankless was the risk of no heat/inconsistent heat at low flow. In your opinion, is this overstated?
    I have only seen one name with a noticeable problem, Bosch...I was startled by it's irratic temp changes for the first minute or two....luckily for me it was purchased by the customer. (I'm gunshy about pawning new nam4es on customers without experience orr research)
    Most of them state they won't kick on till you have at least a .5 gpm flow rate give or take a few hundreths of a GPM.

    I also ran across the AO Smith Vertex PV. They claim 90% efficiency (versus 67% for their own Promax line). My plumber checked with his distributor, and the price is nearly double the next highest model. Still, I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with the Vertex, or if their claim is even valid.

    Great discussion, BTW. I like the idea of tankless, but was discouraged when I learned about low flow performance, as well as the calculated savings vs an HE direct vent gas-fueld storage model (apparently, the total OPEX of the storage is still lower over the long term than tankless, especially when factoring in the unit and installation cost differences). This is why I am also interested in seeing the results of the "noble experiment"; it would be nice to have some hard, real-world numbers to point to for reference.

    With thanks,

    Jay
    If you have the budget for the best option for efficiency...go with a condensing boiler & DHW/indirect storage tank set-up.
    If you're just on the market for an efficient water heater...tankless is the best. (Though A.O. Smith 90% does get my attention, your still paying to heat water that sits there)
    You have to look at the ins and outs on each name...Paloma/Rheem for example max out at 120 (though I think that can be modified...but that effects the efficiency)
    Sort through Rinnai, Takagi, Noritz, Rheem (same MFG as Paloma)...there are quite a few more, but those are the ones I know to be dependable...as for Bosch - they're the cheapest...but, er...let's give them a few years to fine tune things.
    "The biggest regrets we have in life are the chances we never took."

  6. #36
    Master Plumber master plumber mark's Avatar
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    Talking the nobel experiment......

    I apologise that my experimient
    its certainly not on the fast track.

    with a vacation comming up and being very
    busy at work......


    having a little difficulty with my pay pal
    account and I cant seem to buy that damn
    gas meter , without a dog fight......

    installing it with a tee a couple of stops or a
    bypass to check either the 75 or the tankless
    is no big deal.....

    its mostly finding the time to get motivated.

    when you got a perfectly good 75 gal in place its
    hard to explain to the wife why you are screwing up
    the laundry room.....

    probably will be monitoring the 75 gallon
    unit by Aug1st...thats .no big deal

    probably will have the tankless installed by
    Sept 1 if I can obtain one at a discounted price.

    that is the plan

  7. #37

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    Talk about coincidence -- and I suspect this will make GP particularly itchy -- but DIYNetworks recently ran an episode on pulling an old tank heater and replacing it with an electric tankless. This is particularly interesting to me, since the old system was gas and the new one is electric (SETS). I seem to recall reading that an electric tankless is not as cost-effective as a modern HE gas tank; but I can't locate that reference now, and the program never really discussed the difference. They did indicate that the new system required an upgrade to the electrical to the tune of adding a -dedicated- 100A circuit. This is not the solution for me, though I am planning on upgrading from my current 70A shortly ... jay

  8. #38
    Licensed Grump GrumpyPlumber's Avatar
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    Right...I already looked into a SETS (made by Noritz if I recall...tried looking it up and nothing for sets...may be discontinued?!) for a condo owner that couldn't add venting aside from the natural draft already in a closet through the roof.
    The supplier told me he was better off with his draft type, weighing all costs and the fact that electric tankless's aren't nearly as good as the gas.
    "The biggest regrets we have in life are the chances we never took."

  9. #39
    Master Plumber master plumber mark's Avatar
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    Talking electric tankless --downside

    what I have read abou the electric tankless is you

    that they will have a tendencey to lime up very quickly
    just like the electric water heaters seem to do over time...

  10. #40
    DIY Senior Member molo's Avatar
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    There has been no discussion of how gas tankless units handle hard water. We have very hard water here. Someone told me that tankless can't handle that. Is that true for electric and gas tankless?

    Molo

  11. #41
    Licensed Grump GrumpyPlumber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by molo
    There has been no discussion of how gas tankless units handle hard water. We have very hard water here. Someone told me that tankless can't handle that. Is that true for electric and gas tankless?

    Molo

    Rumor has it hard water is rough on the exchangers.
    But most tankless's come with a ten year warranty.
    "The biggest regrets we have in life are the chances we never took."

  12. #42
    Plumber Cass's Avatar
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    They without a softener would require weekly/monthly maintenance in a hard water.

    I would think a softener would be mandatory in a hard water area to prevent repeated call backs due to obviously foreseen problems with out one, and would still require some periodic maintenance.

  13. #43
    Master Plumber master plumber mark's Avatar
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    Default what voids a tankless warranty .....

    Quote Originally Posted by GrumpyPlumber
    Rumor has it hard water is rough on the exchangers.
    But most tankless's come with a ten year warranty.

    Read the fine print in all tankless warranties
    that ten year warranty is void if you have water
    harder than 11 parts.


    Our CITY WATER in INDY is 20..

    you need a water conditioner or the warranty is VOID.


    http://www.weilhammerplumbing.com/houseofhorrors/

  14. #44
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    Keep in mind how a tankless system works...the water is heated from the cold supply to useful (hopefully!) hot supply in the course of a second or so as it runs through the heat exchanger. To do this, the heat exchanger must be VERY hot. The hotter the surface, the more likely you will precipitate out any disolved minerals. This takes fairly massive amounts of power which is why the electric requires a very significant supply, and most gas units require at least a 1" gas supply line. Keep in mind most home stoves only need 1/2" pipe and the volume available by doubling the size isn't linear, a 1" pipe can carry 4x as much gas...think of your stove with all burners on, along with the oven, times 4 and you get the idea.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  15. #45
    Licensed Grump GrumpyPlumber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by master plumber mark
    Read the fine print in all tankless warranties
    that ten year warranty is void if you have water
    harder than 11 parts.


    Our CITY WATER in INDY is 20..

    you need a water conditioner or the warranty is VOID.


    http://www.weilhammerplumbing.com/houseofhorrors/

    Though I don't think our water is that bad, I'm looking into this.
    Also, any particular model/models that applies to?
    "The biggest regrets we have in life are the chances we never took."

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