My Tankless Experiment

[GrumpyPlumber]

does anyone have a clue as to what a 40- 50 or 75 gallon gas water heater average costs to operate is per month????

Thats completely open ended...totally depends on useage.
could be $15 a month....could be $1500 with a high maintanence wife.
I just ask my customers to pull out last summers gas bill if they have a boiler...otherwise the most recent bill for comparison.

[master plumber mark]

Bought a 250btu per hour gas meter on e-ba//
tonight for 79.00......not too bad.....

I am going to meter my 75 gal gas hot water heater
and see what it uses for a month or two...




Now I am being told that a 6.9 gallon Nortiz wont
cut the mustard....


gee...thats just great..... just wonderful ..




Well I only paid 50 bucks for it brand new and
about 50 feet of SS pipeing and other accessories that comes with it in the box....



I supppose I will sell it to someone with a one bathroom house





So now I got to haggle with the Takagi rep and see
if I can get a bigger unit....at a discounted price for personal use....




a 3 bathroom house...2 kids, spoiled wife...
and a Mother-in law moving in some day soon ..

should I just shoot myself??..



any opinions on
whats the best size and model to go with???





.

[Cass]

Bought a 250btu per hour gas meter on e-ba//
tonight for 79.00......not too bad.....

I am going to meter my 75 gal gas hot water heater
and see what it uses for a month or two...




Now I am being told that a 6.9 gallon Nortiz wont
cut the mustard....


gee...thats just great..... just wonderful ..




Well I only paid 50 bucks for it brand new and
about 50 feet of SS pipeing and other accessories that comes with it in the box....



I supppose I will sell it to someone with a one bathroom house





So now I got to haggle with the Takagi rep and see
if I can get a bigger unit....at a discounted price for personal use....




a 3 bathroom house...2 kids, spoiled wife...
and a Mother-in law moving in some day soon ..

should I just shoot myself??..


any opinions on
whats the best size and model to go with???





.

The very best Model would be a between 1977-1980 and the size would be contunious 36-24-36

With no mother-in-law.

[GrumpyPlumber]

The very best Model would be a between 1977-1980 and the size would be contunious 36-24-36

With no mother-in-law.

Cass, technically you're incorrect, I think he said HIGH maintanence wife.
They come with a completely different factor value.

[R/T Performance]

Well I had my 40 gallon gas hot water heater crap out last month.
I went with a tank-less electric I found on ****.After agonizing over a high efficient control type gas tank type(The report of the controller bombing out after a year scared me away) or tankless gas(The cost made me fall over).
I bought a Titan tankless electric(About 250 with overnight shipping).The company is based in Florida and they are actually built here.
I opened the box to find this little unit (I was like oops that was a waste money it so small no way it works)So off to Lowes to get a 60 amp 220 breaker, 20 ft #6 wire, conduit ,disconnect box and a stick of 1/2 copper.
Roughly another $200.
The little small unit was a snap to install.(Even though I disagree with the compression connections)
Surprisingly it produce a decent volume of very hot water.(it does have a temp knob mine is set 3/4 to the hot no young children here).
I did have 2 issues the first was no constant temp.
Called the guy I got it from and he asked well or city water.
Than explained the .5# negative pressure would turn the unit off and recommend a check valve.(Since I installed it two weeks ago no hot cold issue any more)
The other is that I only have a 100 amp service.
And if you do the math.
Water heater drawing 60 amp+ well 25 amps=85 I have not popped a main but it does dim the lights.
So 200 amp service to be installed soon

[R/T Performance]

Here is a link to the company site
http://www.titanheater.com/

[GrumpyPlumber]

I have yet to try an electric tankless....so far I've only heard they don't perform very well...but your first-hand account prompts me to look into it more....comes in handy in condo's or hard to vent area's.
Keep us abreast of the bill...VERY curious on that one.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Mark,
From memory...so I might be off...shower is 2.5 gpm...lav 1.25...toilet is either 1 or 1.25 (I forget) but thats irrelevant for hot (I usually go with factor values for sizing with the .05 residential demand factor unless it's commercial)
Let's say the KS is 2.5 for sake of argument, tack that on too.
(not up to wandering through the code book to verify...feel free to correct it)
3.75 potential hot GPM per bath....but...not too often is the lav & shower on at the same time.

easiest way to look at it....a 6.9 gpm Noritz will contend with 3 showers and a KS at once -
totalling 10 gpm(worse case scenario), thats 7.5 for the showers alone.
I'd guess that would be tapping it, I have only installed one tankless that was less than a whole home (6.5 gpm or better)
It was the Rheem 4.2 gpm...customer had a Roman tub spout with 3/4" feeds and it slowed down drastically when the hot was turned on, she'd opted for the less expensive model, though I suggested otherwise.
I'd gotten a call from her later that day...we'd initially checked the temp at the KS, and the flow wasn't bad, but later on when she went to pour a bath she noticed it.
I went back and looked at the screen, drained it out from both sides, checked the aerator...no sediment...called the MFG and they verified that it has a flow restriction device to ensure the temp stays where it's set when the demand can't keep up.
I have done one Bosch (Lowes carries them), the customer had already gotten it and I verified that it was state code approved before I installed.
It had a tendancy to jump in temperature wildy as it warmed up..Tankles do that a little, but this one took at least 30-45 seconds to level off.

[master plumber mark]

Their is absoutely no demand for them here in
the mid-west...too hard a water content

I have not heard anything good about them....

I have heard stories about having to install a larger breaker panel......$$$

I have heard that they lime up really fast compaired to
the gas units too so you MUST have a water conditioner.
$$$..


perhaps it will work ok for a few years......

you are already in it pretty deep ....

now its really all just a question of pride as to how far
you are willing to go..... ....

[master plumber mark]

The general feeling I am getting is it is better
to err on the side of overkill with a tankless heater

than to be left standing in a cold shower with
your monkey in your hand...
waiting for the hot water to arrive...

it that about correct???


If I ever sell them I certainly will oversize a system rather than undersize one.....

I dont need the greif.dealing with dis-satisfied customers....and if they dont like it,
they can calll somesone else....I doubt they can beat
my price anyway....even with the smaller unit....

I Got a call into my Takagi rep and I am gonna try
to haggle with them for about a 9-12 gallon
per minute unit.....


it really does not cost that much more to go big
and its basically an issue of wether you will lose efficinecy
with the bigger unit
but gain dependibality.....

[GrumpyPlumber]

The general feeling I am getting is it is better
to err on the side of overkill with a tankless heater

than to be left standing in a cold shower with
your monkey in your hand...
waiting for the hot water to arrive...

it that about correct???


If I ever sell them I certainly will oversize a system rather than undersize one.....

I dont need the greif.dealing with dis-satisfied customers....and if they dont like it,
they can calll somesone else....I doubt they can beat
my price anyway....even with the smaller unit....

I Got a call into my Takagi rep and I am gonna try
to haggle with them for about a 9-12 gallon
per minute unit.....


it really does not cost that much more to go big
and its basically an issue of wether you will lose efficinecy
with the bigger unit
but gain dependibality.....

My thoughts on the overkill...YES, about $300 price difference from the "single bath" model to the "whole home"...I won't risk a bad name over catering to short-term budget..I tell them up front.
I'm hearing you LOUD n' clear on the electrics....not up to being a guinea pig here.
I'm "JONSING" to see how your experiment goes...big time.

[jadnashua]

The biggest factor in the midwest, especially in the northern parts, is the winter incoming water temperature. The things are usually designed for a 70-degree temperature rise at a certain flow. Change the input temperature, it can't raise it to the level it was in the summer at the same flow. Lower the flow, and it can be too hot. As a result, they usually spec them to be installed with a tempering valve to keep from scalding you. Some of them have a modulating heat output to help prevent that, but they are generally not stepless from what I've seen, so at some flows, it could be jumping between one level and another, causing the temperature to fluctuate.

Everyone seems so concerned about standby losses...these are important, but a good tank in a temperate room keeps the delta T losses down when it has good insulation.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Everyone seems so concerned about standby losses...these are important, but a good tank in a temperate room keeps the delta T losses down when it has good insulation.

That alone wouldn't sell them...the avg water htr is 60-65% efficient...the tankless's get upwards of 84%...when running.

[GrumpyPlumber]

The very best Model would be a between 1977-1980 and the size would be contunious 36-24-36

With no mother-in-law.

I just now caught that...I really, really like those figures...thats an EXCELLENT model.

[jadnashua]

I went with an indirect, since I had the boiler anyways...nominally 94% efficient.