My Tankless Experiment

[master plumber mark]

I am tired of hearing all the SMOKE and MIRRORS
talk from the tankless salesman and am presently
looking to install one in my own home

then do a little experiment

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I Just went to a training seminar last night on the

takagi tankless water heaters.......

that was fun.......
it felt like being at a three stooges film-fest...

(but their was free food)


I was not aware that when you vented one
out the side of the house just like a power vent
that they used a Stainless Steel single wall
vent pipe..... and it died outside just like a
power vent with a metal Tee with screens on
both ends .......

Now the odd thing that the salesman tried to gloss
over was the fact that the actual temperature of
the tee and out going gases can hit about
300 degrees.... folks...you can fry bacon on that!!

they let you take this out the roof of your house
in single wall SS pipe too!!

I think that this temp could set the Attic on fire some day
or the , bushes or leaves on fire
on the side of the house....

I feel you should use double or triple wall flu
pipe if you want to avoid future problems

probably most local codes would force tou to beef up that vent pipe...


Have you ever burnt yourself on a motor cycle muffler
or a lawnmower muffler???

We asked what happened if a kid, wife or dog touched
this hot as hell vent pipe ????


BRANDING someone on this tee is very possible with the
side house outlet at about knee height..........

I was told that is what you got insurance for.....


skin graphs for the dog, wife, and neighbor kids should all be covered
by your insurance company......

no problem

so I was not too impressed....LOL
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So I think I will install one in my own home
and do an on-going experiment on it.....

Waiting to see if I can get a heavy duty Takagi
from my supplier then slap it on the wall for
RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT

I am looking for a couple of small in line gas meters right now..

then I am gonna hook it up right next to my 75 gallon
BRAD-FORD WHITE...install a bypass on the plumbing system

install the small gas meters to both of the heaters

and do an experiment to see which one works best
and actually is more economical over a certain time period....???


I already have a one inch line with a 3/4 outlet less than
5 feet away...

I have a full 12 inch tile chimmney going out the roof......
the vent is easy as pie and will not factor into the R+D

so it should not be brain surgery to set these up with a bypass

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I presently have a NORTIZ unit new in the box but I dont know how good that brand is...

model #VP-4-36str would anyone know how good this one is???

http://www.noritz.com/n069mdv.html its considered middle of the road.... supposed to supply 6.9 gal per minute
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Lets see....here is my criteria

incomming water right now is about 45......

I got two kids and a very -----HIGH MAINTAINCE WIFE-----

we have three bathrooms --one bath-tub rarely gets used,

one is a bath---6ft X36 whirlpool tub- it gets used a lot.

two kitchen sinks , one dishwasher,

one laundry and laundry tub


technically its a 2 1/2 bathoom house......


again the wife is -----HIGH MAINTIANCE------

and she is not going to put up with a lot of sh/t.
so how do you factor the wife into the experiment.?????



here are the safety instructions for the Nortiz unit I presently have

http://www.noritz.com/documents/N-069M_N-063SManual.pdf

[R/T Performance]

I will be watching for results .
I need to get mine out the dam closet and put a nice pantry there

[master plumber mark]

dont hold your breath

like I mentioined I have not passed this by
my wife yet.....

High maintaince.....remember...


tonight .....I threw this at her and she has said ok.....

so we are on again.....

now waiting on the gas metering devices from
my gas company buddy.......

[toolaholic]

I have a $300 Raytek infared thermometer I use to find radiant pipes in concrete slabs. GREAT tool for many uses. I'd like you to measure the heat on the single wall at your house or at another installation. You can buy one of these starting at $59

[master plumber mark]

the heat on a normal water heater is probably
around 175 comming off the tank type heater
I have slightly burned myself while installing
heaters and touching that pipe... nothing too bad


Like I already said the Takagi folks claim

it leaves the house at 275 to 300

if you get a chance look at the install instructions
in the link I left on the first post.... for th NORTIZ

about page 5 is shows a a warning not to touch
the outgoing pipe on the side of a house
page #5 shows a lady in serious pain from touching the vent....


Once this experiment gets launched ,
I could measure that temp pretty easy


What if I put a piece of bacon on the hood going out
the side of the house and wait to see how long it
took to cook, would that make you happy...???

[Rancher]

I have a $300 Raytek infared thermometer I use to find radiant pipes in concrete slabs. GREAT tool for many uses. I'd like you to measure the heat on the single wall at your house or at another installation. You can buy one of these starting at $59

I have one of those, bought it from one of the E bay stores for $49, and yes you can find the hydronic pipes in the floor... I wanted to use it to find out which tubes in my solar collectors were plugged up... duh, it reads the temperature off the glass cover.

Rancher

[Cookie]

Mark, I read the instruction manual you put on the link, saw the illustration of the woman with the huge glowing burnt hand; tell you what, I wouldn't get one. Too hot, and too many restrictions. Too accessible for a disaster with burns.

[jadnashua]

My boiler is over 98% efficient in its condensing low-fire mode. It uses pvc pipe, and you can easily touch the pipes, which are barely warm, and I've got as much hot water as I need...even with my incoming water at nearly freezing this time of the year.

I still think a tankless is more trouble than it's worth for many of our northern climes where the incoming water is very cold.

[kordts]

I have installed both Noritz and Bosch brand tankless. The Noritz used stainless vent pipe. The Bosch was vented with B-vent. Both were sidewall. The noritz was hung in the kitchen and terminated about 12 foot above ground level. The Bosch was in a basement and terminated about a foot above the ground. I was able to keep my hand on both of the vent pipes while they were under full demand, I would guess the temp was about 100 degrees. I didn't check how hot it was outside. I got a nice little cherry on my forehead from a furnace flue pipe two weeks ago, but that was just galvanised.

[Cal]

Mark,

If you want the BEST ,,,,,,, http://www.foreverhotwater.com/index.php

This is the one . You do not need to worry about anyone getting burned or any of the other whinny crap that people are spewing about ondemand heaters .

If you REALLY want to give it a try ,,,,,, Go Rinnai

Cal

p.s. the HIGH maintenice wife ,,,,,, it is EXHAUSTING ain't it ??

[master plumber mark]

The high maintaince wife just makes a person stronger
you either grow a backbone and draw the line
in the sand or wimper like a whipped poodle and die...


I just realized from your post how many that their
are too choose from out there.........I mean tankless heaters

this is all still presently in the "talk phase"

still loooking for the small gas apartment meters....

and waiting to see about the takagi.....

I have the new Nortiz 6.0 gal on hand now..."


but with all these differnet brands, and every one
being different in technology...its surely gonna be hell to
get one repaired some day..

just hope that the hi-tech plumber that you bought it from
is still in business 3 years from now.....

[moggi1964us]

This kind of system is popular in the UK.

I installed one of these about 4 years ago before I left the UK and it worked a treat.

Hot water supply was at the tap in about 6 seconds or so nearest to the boiler and about 15 seconds furthest from the boiler.

I never had any issues with the heat exhausting as it has a system that captures much of the heat and recycles it. I have stood with my hand next to the vent and felt hot air but not anywhere near able to burn you. The vent was about 24 inches max from the boiler.

Really efficient and small and perfect for places where having a water tank is no option or a costly/difficult one. They run very quietly (well the two I owned did) and are easy to maintain.

Can't tell you what the US brands are like but I used Potterton and I think Glow Worm; the Potterton was the last one installed.

Hope this helps.

[kordts]

Mark,
I installed a Noritz tankless today. The unit cranks out 120 degree water from the factory. The exhaust snaps together, I used one 90, 2 twelve inch straight pipes and a termination birdscreen. I drilled thru the sill plate with a 4-5/8" bit and then silicon caulked around the pipe. When it's on, you can keep your hand on the pipe, the exhaust is hot, but not too hot. Get on the gravy train!

[master plumber mark]

Thought I would post an update on my little experiment.....


I got the Nortiz tankless heater 6.9gal per minute unit



but I have yet to get a decent small gas meter at a decent price...


finding the time to install it has been an issue too.........



in our city their are a few plumbers that have jumped on the bandwagon and are planning to
really go big time into this field.....

I am being told that they have tried them in their own homes and found that their gas bills have been cut in half
during the summer months....


I am wondering 2 things......

without a meter at the water-heater.....

does anyone have a clue as to what a 40- 50 or 75 gallon gas water heater average costs to operate is per month????


does anyone out ther have a clue as to the average
a tankless water heater will use per month???

going back on e-ba/// to look for a meter tonight.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Mark, you're gonna need something thats at least 7gpm...anything less and the flow could be a dribble when two showers are going and the dishwasher kicks on (they have built in flow restriction to regulate temps depending on useage)
I've done some calling on past customers...verdicts in...the gas bill does go down, also my gas co offers a $300 rebate for tankless over 82% efficient.

I am getting almost as many requests for tankless as regular heaters now. (the price often scares 'em & add the fact that theres more labor for the 3/4" gas feed & vent)
The SS vent is expensive, and if you can't find a convenient spot thats 4' from any opening outside the desired location for the tankless...you'll do well to "desire" another location inside along the foundation.

Also...tankless come with a double wall thimble for the heat going through the foundation...keep the height a minimum 18" above grade and leaves wouldn't be a problem.

Tankless heaters are not condensing, so the vents run hotter...If you really want to sell a customer on efficiency...run an indirect off a condensing boiler...my gas co offers rebates on both of those as well.(up to $1100 for that particular combo)