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Thread: New guy here with a few questions

  1. #1
    DIY Junior Member R/T Performance's Avatar
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    Default New guy here with a few questions

    First a brief intro.
    15 year Master certified auto mechanic.
    I am hard headed about doing things myself.
    Short version of well history.
    Built house on vacant land had Old timer well driller put well in 4" steel cased 110 feet.(.005 slot screen and 1/2 hp pump mark tank)
    Year later started running out of water.
    The guy that installed the well said the bladder tanks bad and replaced.
    Same problem
    Can back and acid the well to clean screen.
    Same problem
    Finally hired a different well man.
    Pounded well another 69 feet.(Replaced with .010 slot screen I am in clay reused old pump)
    Finally I had water even though it was hard as bricks(Lots of Iron).
    Constant low water pressure and poor volume.
    (I didn't have the $$ to replace the pump)
    5 or so years go buy and one morning no water
    Check pump wiring breakers ect
    Decide pump failed
    Pulled well buy hand(Yes a pain in the arse but do able with a couple large pipe wrenches and a pair vice grips)
    The down pipe is one inch schedule 80 threaded together.
    So I bought a Flotec 3/4 hp 10 gpm pump.
    All I could find on a saturday afternoon.
    Installed pump wouldn't run
    Pulled back up 30 feet found wire burnt in half.
    Spliced (Soldiered and heat shrink-ed)

    Went about 6-8 month better water volume and pressure.
    Finally could run a hose full blast and pump will cycle on build and shut off.
    Then another saturday am no water.
    Dug up receipt for pump.
    Pulled pump and found another burnt wire.
    Spliced re installed.
    A month later I noticed rapid cycling adjusted switch aired up bladder tank.


    Now it been a year in a half since I put the pump in and pop goes the breaker to the well


    Figure great the pumps bad.
    Pulled pump found broken wire
    Had 12 ga solid core wire.
    Replaced complete pump wire with 12 ga strand core wire.Couldn't find 10 ga pump feed wire.


    Ok here the Questions

    First off I an going to drain the tank to see if it is water logged.
    How do I know for sure? Air leak out the facet?

    What would be the correct size tank?
    2.5 baths 10 gpm pump.

    Where can I get a cycle stop valve?
    How much are they?
    Will it make my pump last and save on my electric bill ?

    Thanks and Sorry for the repeat question but some of the answers and lost in translation
    Rob
    Last edited by R/T Performance; 02-23-2007 at 10:42 AM.

  2. #2
    DIY scratch-pad engineer leejosepho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R/T Performance
    First off I an going to drain the tank to see if it is water logged.
    How do I know for sure? Air leak out the facet?
    After turning off your pump and letting the water pressure out of your system (by opening a faucet or spigot somewhere), check the psi at the Shrader valve on your bladder tank. If it has no air, put some in (maybe 25 psi) and see whether it remains or "blows on through" into your water pipes. If it leaks down, you have a bad bladder, tank body or Shrader valve. If it does not, pressurize the bladder to within a couple of psi below your lower pressure switch setting and turn your pump back on and that part of your system should be okay.

    Others here will have to try to answer your other questions ...
    Last edited by leejosepho; 02-23-2007 at 03:06 PM.

  3. #3
    DIY Junior Member R/T Performance's Avatar
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    First off the tank was low and I aired up to 30 psi and it still there.
    I had open a couple facet's and drained it today off the tank valve.

    Little more info.
    Empty tank shut off valves took 43 seconds to fill.
    Part open hose approximately the same as a shower 120 second on to off and about 2.5 minutes between cycling.
    Wide open hose holds 40 psi. .

    I have the cut in at 30 and off 65.

    Yes I taped the wiring to the down pipe ever time.
    But a customer offered a tip about some insulator.Somthing to due with motor start up distorting and causing the wire to contact the case.


    Rancher is your water pressure more constant?
    Do you regret spending the money on it?
    I found a couple on line for 70 or so bucks .
    Would I be better to just pony up the cash for a larger tank.
    I am thinking 80 gallon equivalent I have a 40 now.
    The water pressure goes from great to ok to great about 5 times during the course of one shower

  4. #4
    DIY Junior Member R/T Performance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raucina
    You seem to have a electrical problem due to wires being cut on the casing. It could be due to your technique of tying and lowering the pump, or because your tank is shot and the pump is cycling too often.

    Tie wires with tape or ties very often to the pipe

    use "stand-offs" every 10 or 20 feet - very important.

    use the correct wire! go to a mechanical supply house with the length of control box to pump and have him size it or use the spec from the pump.

    Some of you will yell, but the wire I have used that NEVER dies is 12-3 or 10-3 UF cable - not the "loose" twisted so called well wire.

    CHECK the amp draw and resistance of the wires down the well. Its like taking your blood pressure - it tells you whats going on in the dark netherworld.

    MAINTAIN the pressure tank and dont let the pump cycle because its low on air.

    Dont think to buy a csv until you correct the basic problems first and find out if your drop wires and pump meet test specs.
    I will check the amp draw I even have a fluke with an amp prob .
    Never even thought that.
    I wish I new off the stand off before I droped it back in(Just herd of them tonight)
    I replaced the loose twisted well pump solid core wire .
    With well pump stranded core wire (Looked like a extension cord).
    Lowes had it in stock 12/2 with ground.Oh yeah its a 2 wire pump no start up box.

    How often do I need to check my tank?

  5. #5
    DIY scratch-pad engineer leejosepho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R/T Performance
    How often do I need to check my tank?
    Theoretically, never. But if your Shrader valve has a slow leak ...

    Or, imagine a pinhole in the tank's bladder. As long as your pump is working and there is a greater pressure on the water side of the bladder, the air should not be able to escape. But if the pump is down and the air pressure is greater, it could.

    Since you already know how your pump cycles during a shower, check the tank if you ever notice a dramatic change as long as someone was not simultaneously running the washing machine or watering the garden.

  6. #6
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    Make sure to install the cap on the air valve - that is a better seal than then valve itself.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  7. #7
    Plumber Cass's Avatar
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    The air precharge in the tank needs to be 2# lower than the switches turn on pressure. You need to kill the power to the pump and open a faucet until the pressure is 0 then set it.

  8. #8
    Previous member sammyhydro11's Avatar
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    Yep,cycling is definitely the leading cause of motor failure. Any well or pump guy can tell you that. I guess someone without the proper experience would need to see a study. Maybe after i do a little bit of research on structural engineering i can go on a forum and start giving people advice on how to build their home? Probably not a wise move.

    SAM

  9. #9
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    I will sum it up this way. Gary Slusser, Valveman, Sammyhydro and my self have at least 90 years of combined pump and well experience. Then we have an Engineer and a Bull Dozer operator with an answer for everything. You do what ever you want to do with your system. It's no skin off my nose. I was just trying to give you the correct answers as were the other three guys mentioned above. If someone wants to listen to the other answers that's fine too. I personally think all of this debunking of known solutions to problems just like yours is a major waste of your time.

    bob...

  10. #10
    DIY Senior Member thassler's Avatar
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    <thassler buys a round of beers for everyone>

  11. #11
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rancher
    Huh? You only use as much water as you use... higher pressure uses more water?

    Rancher
    Yes raising the pressure on a pump causes higher water use because you use more water plus you get fewer gallons between pump runs so you start the pump more often. It's a time thing, you don't shower, brush your teeth, wash you face and hands faster because you raised the pressure, so more water flows in the same lenght of time.

    That's because the velocity of the water has increased; pressure does control velocity, or with no pressure the fluid doesn't move.

    Check it out:
    http://www.flexconind.com/html/sizing.html
    http://www.aquascience.net/tanksizing.htm

    BTW, of all the pumps I've replaced none were installed by DIYers. DIYers replace their own stuff. And many of those guys that hire it done and watch, they are DIY wannabees and probably will be DIYers the next time.

    As to why the pump fails, you can learn alot form looking at a submersible pump and asking the people for the well/pump history and water service over the past few months. And short cycling will overheat a pump faster than anything else. Increasing the pressure will do that very quickly.
    Last edited by Gary Slusser; 02-26-2007 at 09:17 PM.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  12. #12
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    Valveman and Gary beat me to the explaination of why cycling ruins motors. I can add that, capacitors are not a fuse and not a safety valve for the motor. Without the capacitor, there would be nothing to replace except the motor which will die just as quick as a two wire motor with no capacitor. I hear this all the time "I want a three wire motor so I can work on it from above ground". This is a mentality thing. People think that because there is a control box they can fix things when they break. In reality, both a two and three wire motor are going to die just as quick when cycling occurs. With the three wire control box there are just more things to fix. In my opinion the only good thing about the three wire motor is the added starting torque. There are places where this may be necessary, but not in my area. So I use two wire motors with great success.

    Rancher, I didn't know you had a dozer, now you have an identity crisis. But I'll help you out, your the Engineer. You also give very good advice on most things. Just not where the CSV is concerned. Since your not using yours, why don't you send it to Raucina, I know he's been wanting one to kick around.

    bob...

  13. #13
    DIY Junior Member R/T Performance's Avatar
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    Ranucina First I believe the first pump may have not of completely failed.
    I installed the new pump and it would not fire.
    Pulled back up and found failed wire.
    But I already had the 3/4 in the hole so that's where it stayed.

    I am trying to figure out how the CSV reduce wear being it chokes output from 10 gpm to 1 gpm if you choke and oil pump filter(or output) it just bypass and creates more heat.

    I am not a Fool.
    I paid to have my well installed by a so called professional and an 50 year old military well pound-er.
    I also hand dug my pit-less(In clay I might add)To save a few dollars.Budget was very tight then.
    So right after my well was set deeper I had pockets of air spitting out every time my water was turned on.
    The Second well guy came out and found there was a leak in the drop pipe (Which is schedule 80 thread in 20' lengths).
    So I helped him with his winching rig pull it back up.
    Turned out to be the pump bushing was leaking and allowed the drop pipe to drain back.
    Then it was fine for 5-6 years .but I was a wear the 1/2 hp was small for a 160 ft well.So when I got up to find no water one morning I assumed pump was done.I went and got a new pump.

    I am not a well man and I don't pretend to be one on TV either.

    But I am very mechanically inclined.I just understand how most things work.
    I need to go and soap my tank this week to see wear my air is going but in 5 days it hasn't lost any air.

    I will when I can get a few extra dollars replace the tank with a larger and move the existing tank in to my shop if nothing else it will provide room temperature water to wash my hands with

  14. #14
    DIY Junior Member R/T Performance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser
    Yes raising the pressure on a pump causes higher water use because you use more water plus you get fewer gallons between pump runs so you start the pump more often. It's a time thing, you don't shower, brush your teeth, wash you face and hands faster because you raised the pressure, so more water flows in the same lenght of time.

    That's because the velocity of the water has increased; pressure does control velocity, or with no pressure the fluid doesn't move.

    Check it out:
    http://www.flexconind.com/html/sizing.html
    http://www.aquascience.net/tanksizing.htm

    BTW, of all the pumps I've replaced none were installed by DIYers. DIYers replace their own stuff. And many of those guys that hire it done and watch, they are DIY wannabees and probably will be DIYers the next time.

    As to why the pump fails, you can learn alot form looking at a submersible pump and asking the people for the well/pump history and water service over the past few months. And short cycling will overheat a pump faster than anything else. Increasing the pressure will do that very quickly.
    Thanks I need 20 gallon draw down and 45 gallon capacity

  15. #15
    DIY Member belewmoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thassler
    <thassler buys a round of beers for everyone>
    I'm takin' you up on that! What's your location?

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