Which are the most efficient storage water heaters (gas)?

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GoTanklessToday

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srdenny said:
Heat exchanger maintenance is made quite simple by using the Webstone "Isolator" valve kit when installing a tankless. Two buckets, a bottle of CLR, a couple of old washing machine hoses and a small pump and the job of cleaning the exchanger is accomplished in 10 minutes by the cabaña boy.


I agree. Those who are scared of tankless just haven't taken time to understand them. And for the record our customers aren't buying tankless because of all the money they will save. They want unlimited hot water. Our average customer household income is in excess of 100K. Sure, we do installs for affluent customers, but we do just as many for police officers, school teachers, and factory workers.

Our customers want them. If those of you heel draggers would put as much energy into selling them as you do trying to discredit them, your customers will love them too. Again, they aren't for everyone, so don't try to sell them to everyone.

Our avg price is 3k, which includes gas and venting. We install about 50 a month now. That may sound like a lot to some, but there is one contractor in California who is installing in excess of 200 a month. Every month.
 

Master Plumber Mark

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cost justification for unlimited hot water

I would love to install 200 a month...of anything..

but I know $3000 would not fly well here......


I used to install solar panels a long time ago and
they had all the information to prove a pay back
in so many years for the investment....
or course it was all smoke and mirrors...



With what or how do you do to justify the extra costs
to the customer..???

I am sure you must have some sort of pay back
calculations or estimates??

or are people just flocking to you because it is the
newest fad and they have seen it all on the internet??


They see the promise of "unlimited hot water"
and just take a blind leap of faith???

So do they even think "why do I need unlimited hot water"
how long do i really need to be in the shower for???


Though I dont think that the tankless can provide unlimited hot
water to more than one fixture at a time....

it just grabs them I suppose...and wont let go......

and then they write that big check
 
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Jadnashua

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Where I live, you need to raise the incoming water nearly 80 degrees to have comfortable water at the shower. Now, for 2.5gallon/min head and an 85% efficient system, that's about a 113KBTU unit. That's not hot enough for your dishwasher, and if you want to fill the tub in anything like a timely fashion, most valves are in the order of 6 gallons/minute, so that's about 271KBTU/hr unit. Try running the washing machine, or nearly anything else at the sametime,and your needs ramp up radically. Now, in the summer, the loads are much less, since the incoming water is probably 30 degrees warmer. Having lived with one for awhile, unless you live in a temperate location (discounting all other issues), it just doesn't work out. Much ofthe mid-western USA can get stretchs of below zero for awhile - the incoming water approaches freezing. It just doesn't work out - a tank is a much preferable situation. Yes, some of the tankless are designed to allow them to be run in serial to provide larger heat rises, or larger flows, but now you have two units to worry about for maintenance. The physics just don't make it reasonable unless the user is willing to make lifestyle changes. And at that, the hardware costs more, too. WHy?
 

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24

The following events took place between 8:24 pm and 2:04 am
Events occur, in turned based time.


Customer calls last night, a referral from HD. Customer has 5 bathrooms and 7 adults living at their home. Both the upstairs and downstairs of this house is completely finished with full kitchen (parents live with kids, not the other way around) First words out of the customer's mouth, "I'm sitting over here at LW's, just left HD because they didn't have a tankless water heater to buy. HD sells Poloma sp? and they were out. I "already" know this customer has been influenced by the market hype of these tankless units, otherwise it wouldn't of been the first words out of his mouth.

I start talking to him, asked him how close the main trunk line of the gas service is. He told me it is on the opposite side of the furnace next to the water heater. I told him the absolute minimum need for his application starts at 3/4" and goes up. Given his demand with 7 adults will be safe to say 1" is more realistic, don't you think?

Mind you, this is an emergency call; this guy ONLY cares about having hot water come monday morning @ 6am. The sun could fall from the sky, it doesn't matter to him. He's has to worry about showers come monday morning before they go to work. I found out the unit this customer wanted to buy that was a Poloma was $200 with a 4-7.5 gpm flow rating.

See the problem here? The customer drives for the cheap, the reality of his situation calls for a much higher GPM rating on his unit to accomplish hot water on demand with the combination of other demands (dishwasher/washing machine) without a lower temperature because of the shared use.

I explained to the customer that in our area that calcium buildup/liming of the heat exchanger requires cabana boy to clean it periodically to maintain it's original efficiency to maintain that GPM flow it was so gloriously remarked about to convince the masses that it will serve your needs.

Verbatim from the customer, "Well it sounds like you are trying to talk me out of the tankless." I replied, "No, I'm telling you the reality of these units and what you have to value what your personal time is worth to keep maintaining this unit." "You have substantial costs to install it, major rework of the gas line along with substantial costs involved in running the new flue for the tankless." "The unit you are purchasing has to be ran in stainless steel due to the high temperature of the burned gases which is in excess of 500 degrees." "Galvanised piping cannot be used due to the high temperature, the creation of toxic fumes and condensation which is detrimental to the tankless unit." "In other words there is no way you are going to afford me even during regular scheduled hours along with the cost of a tankless unit along with the vent kit and all the ceilings I have to tear down to install this unit."

He said, "We'll, I guess we consider ourselves pretty fortunate with our current situation." "Our water heater is 14 years old and we've never had to do anything until now." < A.O. Smith tank. 50 gallon gas regular vented.

He basically scoffed at the numbers I gave him to get the tankless in and said there is no way the savings would recoup, especially if he has to periodically "babysit" the unit so he can take a hot shower without paying hired hands quarterly to clean an ongoing issue.

He heads to Sears (by my recommendation) and in calling them before he gets there, no 75 gallon gas heaters in stock. (we find out when I arrive that due to the location of this water heater, nothing is going in other than a 50 and the 50 ended up being a ton of work after all. He brought the 75 over to the house when I arrived, had the wife take it back and get a 50 gallon 12 year GE. (Flue venting killed the idea of "trying" to make the 75 go in, 4" minimum and they had 3 going to a B-vent chase.

Customer wanting a pan installed under this heater made everything on top the heater change, dramatically. I charged almost $600 last night to get this in, including materials which included a PRV and copper pipe/fittings. He provided the 3/4 ball valve and 3/4" DUF's/aluminum pan and bricks.

The expansion tank you see in the pictures below is defective. I brought a ST-12 upon the assumption a 75 gal heater was going in. He didn't want to pay the cost for that larger tank upon the discovery his tank was bad and only two years old so he opted to take care of the EXP tank himself.

After I wrote the bill, I always give my first time customers a discount. The guy was so glad to have the luxury of waking up sunday morning (probably as late as I did LOL!) knowing he has hot water for under a $1000.

Tankless cannot touch those numbers. Neither the install nor the base price of this particular customer's needs, excluding the vent kit.

I told the customer since I'm working for his next door neighbor across the lake next week, I'll come over and replace that expansion tank ($24) @ no charge along with I want to strap that expansion tank to the ceiling and get some metal hanger iron on that 3" flue as well.

Now the customer doesn't even have to worry about spending another $50 plus the time to replace the tank; he's getting it for free.

The majority of people treat plumbing as PUT IT IN AND FORGET IT, WORRY ABOUT IT WHEN IT BREAKS. There might be cabana boys running around that have the time and knowledge to tinker with their plumbing but the majority of people follow the out of site out of mind theory.

GoTankless,

Since your username is solely created to promote,

I'm going to invest a little of my time and call around to say, 20 mfgs. of tankless heaters and get the prices of those heat exchangers you stated are on average, $138. Then I'm going to find out what it costs to have "trained hands" replace that exchanger in retrospect to a plumber replacing a water heater like I did last night.

My response time was 45 minutes. If I was going last to replace a heat exchanger on that unit, I wouldn't of been able to, would have to wait till monday, the customer would be conflicted with what is the better choice; buy a whole new tankless or pay to have parts replaced on the aging unit.

What's good about these types of threads?

Promoters of tankless water heaters don't handle constructive criticism of their product very well. In retort, they start pulling these inflated numbers out of the air and try to diminish factual evidence such as I and others provide on a continual basis that pretty much should do one thing to the many readers of these threads:

Take all the information you read, examine it greatly, find out who in your area has the capability and availability of parts and expertise before you dare stick your neck out to try these new devices.

GoTankless "tried" to blame the plumber on my one customers situation on New Year's Day on being a nit-wit and plumbers in his area install heat trap nipples upside down.

The reality of my customer's situation was he had a product no one knows how to work on, no one can fix it and he has to rely on 1-800 numbers to fix it, along with a slew of parts to figure out what will fix it by the average consumer with no background knowledge of "how-to".

Market hype folks. Until they make a better product with parts availability and trained hands to work on them with the elimination of efficiency loss due to calcium buildup,

I cannot mislead my customer base to invest in something that leaves them helpless when the times come when **** goes wrong. It's predictable, products fail and my ability to solve my customer's hot water issue last night laid solely on the product I was working with.




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Kordts

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Everybody could drive a piece of crap Yugo, live in a trailer or otherwise not spend money on what we think is important. Some people want tankless heaters. It's a proven technology. It is a growing market. I don't push it, I talk most people out of it. But the applications where it will work, I sell them and install them. Like it or not, being a plumber requires some salesmanship. Talking someone out of a tankless is salesmanship. I want to be the guy in my area that is known as the tankless guy. With that comes a need to be honest and tell people when thay aren't suited for them. I think gotankless is that kind of guy. He isn't saying that tankless is right in every application. One of things plumbers need to do is realize that you don't have to sell a product because it is cheaper, you sell the best because it's better, sometimes it is less expensive, but you sell it because it's the best, plus the bigger the price tag, the higher the markup. The customer is happy because they have the best, whether it's toilet, faucet, or sillcock, and we are happy because it was profitable. Everybody wins.
 

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so every body wins??

if a customer wants to shoot themselves in the
foot, .......well thats ok with me too.....

I just dont want ot be the guy loading the gun....

or the plumber
he is pi//ed off at when it does not live up to the hype...

or the guy two years from now he calls crying about
a broken down $3500 unit on Sunday afternoon.....


Rugged did the 100% right thing ,
time and situation permitting
he still was better off without the tankless unit...


I dont see a problem with selling the tankless heaters to
customers as long as they are made completely aware
of the pros and cons involved in owning one ......

make them sign a waiver stateing
......dont come crying to me if it fails to live up to your expectations.

most stats on the tankless look like smoke
and mirrors to me..........if any legit stats exist at all .....

but the countless complaints are out there for all the world to see

I feel the tests done by Bradford white posted on my web site
white speak for themselves.......
 
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Kordts

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Why does a customer have to sign a waiver for a tankless? Hell, beer commercials imply that drinking their swill will cause hotties to throw themselves at you, but breweries don't make you sign a waiver to drink their product. I install a lot of water heaters but more and more customers ask about tankless, and I am a fool not to take advantage of "buzz" being generated that didn't cost me a penny.
 

Phil H2

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I don't read all of the threads here. But, I don't recall any homeowners asking questions about repairing their tankless heater. I know tankless aren't common. But haven't heard much bad about them except from plumbers that don't like them. But, it is very possible that I missed the homeowners problems.

My first experiance with tankless was 15-20 years ago and it left a bad taste. I worked at a place with 6 big Palomas used for shower buildings. There was probably a problem with the overall plumbing design. The output temperature varied when the water demand changed all of the sudden (The 3 separate systems also had tempering valves that did not help and Chicago pushbutton valves on the showers with very low flow heads). Wildly varying temperature was a problems from day one. With a fairly stable flow, they worked wonderfully. After about a year, one thermocouple went bad and the closest parts to So. Calif. were in WA or OR. The threads on the thermocouple were metric. They were installed in a place with terrible water quality (harder than rocks and full of minerals). But that never seemed to bother them. They were replaced with tanks a year or two after being installed because the problem with temperature fluctuation could not be solved.

On the other hand, I had a friend that was very happy with his little Paloma tankless. He lived in a cabin on the Big Island of Hawaii. He had no indoor plumbing. Rain water from his roof was collected in a cistern. The shower was outside and used the Paloma for heat. I visited him a couple times and it worked great. These are my only personal experiences with tankless. This all happened 15-20 years ago. I still like the simple and plain design of a good-old tank water heater with a standing pilot.
 

GoTanklessToday

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B]I would love to install 200 a month...of anything..[/B]

but I know $3000 would not fly well here......

You will be surprised how well they sell when you actually try.



With what or how do you do to justify the extra costs
to the customer..???

There is no need to justify the price, people aren't buying them for justification of price. They want unlimited hot water.



I am sure you must have some sort of pay back
calculations or estimates??

The pay back is in the form of long life, along with a 30-50 % savings (conservatively) in hot water costs.



or are people just flocking to you because it is the
newest fad and they have seen it all on the internet??

There you go again... PEOPLE... these are not new heaters, nor is this a fad. Tankless heaters have been used in other countries around the world for 50+ years.



They see the promise of "unlimited hot water"
and just take a blind leap of faith???

Our customers are well read, and want high tech equipment. Plus, it doesnt hurt that I spend 12000.00 a month on advertising...



So do they even think "why do I need unlimited hot water"
how long do i really need to be in the shower for???

It's not just about taking long showers. What if they have that 100+ gallon soaking tub? Lots of houses here do. Before tankless, they are using those tubs for storage bins. What if they have 3 teenagers who are showering several times a day? Simple thing is that finally now they have options that will allow them to use that tub, and not worry about who's turn it is in the shower.


Though I dont think that the tankless can provide unlimited hot
water to more than one fixture at a time....

It depends on which model they install. Most will. In our climate, we get between 4 - 4.5 GPM at 120 degrees. That is enough to run two showers at the same time. That doesn't mean they will actually get to do that. It just means that is what the heater will do. Pipe size, condition, layout, etc determines the actual output to the homeowner.



it just grabs them I suppose...and wont let go......

and then they write that big check

Imagine that. A plumbing contractor wanting their customer to write a big check. I don't know about where you all are from, but here, its VERY expensive to be in business. We need all the big checks we can get.
 
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GoTanklessToday

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The following events took place between 8:24 pm and 2:04 am


just left HD because they didn't have a tankless water heater to buy. HD sells Poloma sp? and they were out.

Classic. OUT OF STOCK. I wonder why? I love this one.



I start talking to him, asked him how close the main trunk line of the gas service is. He told me it is on the opposite side of the furnace next to the water heater. I told him the absolute minimum need for his application starts at 3/4" and goes up. Given his demand with 7 adults will be safe to say 1" is more realistic, don't you think?

Wow, you really had me there for a minute.. I was rooting for you. All your questions were right on... I thought you were gonna sell a tankless. As for number of people, it really doesnt matter. The BTU's of the heater and the distance from the meter determine what the pipe size will be. Dang it... you were really on target there for a minute...


Mind you, this is an emergency call; this guy ONLY cares about having hot water come monday morning @ 6am. The sun could fall from the sky, it doesn't matter to him. He's has to worry about showers come monday morning before they go to work. I found out the unit this customer wanted to buy that was a Poloma was $200 with a 4-7.5 gpm flow rating.

Under the circumstances you describe here, I would have sold him a tank heater too, but only after giving him the options for going tankless. But if he truly said he only cares about getting hot water back by morning, then i'd have done the same thing you did. I would have been done and gone by 11pm though if I got there at 9:15.



I explained to the customer that in our area that calcium buildup/liming of the heat exchanger requires cabana boy to clean it periodically to maintain it's original efficiency to maintain that GPM flow it was so gloriously remarked about to convince the masses that it will serve your needs.

Verbatim from the customer, "Well it sounds like you are trying to talk me out of the tankless." I replied, "No, I'm telling you the reality of these units and what you have to value what your personal time is worth to keep maintaining this unit." "You have substantial costs to install it, major rework of the gas line along with substantial costs involved in running the new flue for the tankless." "The unit you are purchasing has to be ran in stainless steel due to the high temperature of the burned gases which is in excess of 500 degrees." "Galvanised piping cannot be used due to the high temperature, the creation of toxic fumes and condensation which is detrimental to the tankless unit." "In other words there is no way you are going to afford me even during regular scheduled hours along with the cost of a tankless unit along with the vent kit and all the ceilings I have to tear down to install this unit."


He basically scoffed at the numbers I gave him to get the tankless in and said there is no way the savings would recoup, especially if he has to periodically "babysit" the unit so he can take a hot shower without paying hired hands quarterly to clean an ongoing issue.

That customer was not a good prospect for tankless, plus there are many false statements in your pitch to him. Stainless venting is not for heat. Its for cooler exhaust, and the byproduct there of.. Condensation. Plus, it has to be sealed vent pipe because of the cat 3 rating. Tankless heaters have blowers to evacuate the exhaust. (most anyway). Hard water? That's the one thing I can't comment on because I know nothing of that. I will do some research for you as well.



He heads to Sears (by my recommendation)

My only question is WHY on earth would you send this guy to a retailer to get their heater? Is your company a "for profit" outfit? Get a warehouse and stock up man...



After I wrote the bill, I always give my first time customers a discount. The guy was so glad to have the luxury of waking up sunday morning (probably as late as I did LOL!) knowing he has hot water for under a $1000.

He wasn't a good tankless prospect. Although we "go tankless today" all the time, the majority require a days notice to get done. The average tankless conversion is taking our crews about 6 man hours. One thing we do though, is keep a stock of "loaner" heaters on hand. When we run into the situation like you are describing here, we replace the leaker with one of our loaners to use until we can get back to do the conversion.



Tankless cannot touch those numbers. Neither the install nor the base price of this particular customer's needs, excluding the vent kit.

Absolutely, you are right on the cost part. Tankless is 3 times the money. It's not always about cost.



The majority of people treat plumbing as PUT IT IN AND FORGET IT, WORRY ABOUT IT WHEN IT BREAKS. There might be cabana boys running around that have the time and knowledge to tinker with their plumbing but the majority of people follow the out of site out of mind theory.

You are right. That is why for now, you will be selling way more tanks than tankless heaters. No doubt about it.


GoTankless,

Since your username is solely created to promote,

I'm going to invest a little of my time and call around to say, 20 mfgs. of tankless heaters and get the prices of those heat exchangers you stated are on average, $138. Then I'm going to find out what it costs to have "trained hands" replace that exchanger in retrospect to a plumber replacing a water heater like I did last night.

When you do spend some time, you will find that there aren't 20 manufacturers to call. The big 5 are: Noritz, Rinnai, Paloma (also sold as Rheem. Did you know that Paloma OWNS Rheem?), Takagi, Bosch. We're only talking about GAS fired tankless heaters here. As for cost, if we aren't on a flat rate job, our hourly rate is 100/hr.



My response time was 45 minutes. If I was going last to replace a heat exchanger on that unit, I wouldn't of been able to, would have to wait till monday, the customer would be conflicted with what is the better choice; buy a whole new tankless or pay to have parts replaced on the aging unit.

I wouldn't be able to change a heat exchanger at 9:15pm either. We don't stock them because the odds of any going bad for the next 10 years is nil. Sometimes you have to remind your customer that it won't be the end of the world if they go without hot water for a day (or put the loaner in...). I can have any part for any brand in 24 hours or less.



Promoters of tankless water heaters don't handle constructive criticism of their product very well.

Actually, I sell a fraction of tankless compared to tank style heaters. Not everyone can afford them, and there are some people who can't have them. Heck, there are even those who don't want them. I sell whatever my customer wants. I am able to do so because I've taken the time to learn about the equipment.


Take all the information you read, examine it greatly, find out who in your area has the capability and availability of parts and expertise before you dare stick your neck out to try these new devices.

They are not new, (50+ year old technology). But I do agree with the rest of this statement. Take your own advice and learn about them. Get factory training and be the tankless guy in your area. Or not... its your call. Someone will be stepping up though. May as well be you...



GoTankless "tried" to blame the plumber on my one customers situation on New Year's Day on being a nit-wit and plumbers in his area install heat trap nipples upside down.

Get your facts straight... I said the plumber here in my area was a nit wit. A guy who sells himself as a long time "master" plumber did that. My point (again) was to point out that even a simple old tank heater can be installed improperly, resulting in a no hot situation for several days.



The reality of my customer's situation was he had a product no one knows how to work on, no one can fix it and he has to rely on 1-800 numbers to fix it, along with a slew of parts to figure out what will fix it by the average consumer with no background knowledge of "how-to".

The reality is (most likely) that the plumber installed it incorrectly. Again.. it seems so simple to me... (this is where I knock on your forehead and say "McFly...") if no one is stepping up as the tankless guy in your area, then why not you? That opportunity is a short lived one, I can assure you. You are sitting squarely where we were in 2003.
 

GoTanklessToday

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kordts said:
Why does a customer have to sign a waiver for a tankless? Hell, beer commercials imply that drinking their swill will cause hotties to throw themselves at you, but breweries don't make you sign a waiver to drink their product. I install a lot of water heaters but more and more customers ask about tankless, and I am a fool not to take advantage of "buzz" being generated that didn't cost me a penny.


Well said. Do you need a job?
 

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jadnashua said:
Where I live, you need to raise the incoming water nearly 80 degrees to have comfortable water at the shower. Now, for 2.5gallon/min head and an 85% efficient system, that's about a 113KBTU unit. That's not hot enough for your dishwasher, and if you want to fill the tub in anything like a timely fashion, most valves are in the order of 6 gallons/minute......?

The average system will give 3.8 gpm at 120 with an 80 degree rise. The thing is, there is no need to heat your shower water to 120. You can't use 120. You use it at 105-106. If you set the temp to 110, you will be right back up there at 4+ gpm, which will run two 2.5 gpm showers at the same time (2 gpm hot, the rest cold). The plumbing might not supply that, but the heater will produce it. I always ask my customers to answer honestly.. when will they be using two showers at the same time? That is the classic "magnum" mentality. "how fast will this Viper go? 150+... SWEET"

Tankless requires a different thought process. When you need more gpm, you turn down the heater. Why spend all that energy to heat it to 120, and then IMMEDIATELY cool it back off at the shower? These heaters come with remote temperature controllers. When you step into the shower, turn it down to 110 and hop in. Doing whites? turn it up to the max. Slow to fill the tub? Yes, you bet. There is no free lunch. Tankless does not deliver high volumes of hot water in a short order. I compare the tankless to the "tortoise", and the tank to the "hare". A 50 gallon tank heater will give you about 70 gallons of 120 degree water every hour. A tankless will give you (in my climate) 270.
 

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Ah, but when the incoming water is 33 degrees, and there are losses between source and use points, 80 degree rise is marginal. And, trying to fill a big tub under these conditions is tough - forget about someone else using hot water...all of them I've seen require a flow restrictor to maintain the max temp rise...that affects the pressure, too.
 

GoTanklessToday

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jadnashua said:
Ah, but when the incoming water is 33 degrees, and there are losses between source and use points, 80 degree rise is marginal. And, trying to fill a big tub under these conditions is tough - forget about someone else using hot water...all of them I've seen require a flow restrictor to maintain the max temp rise...that affects the pressure, too.

They aren't for everyone, that is for sure. 33 degrees? Where are you, Fairbanks? YIKES. The newer tankless systems do control flow. This is good. In the old days, the tankless heaters would allow more water to pass through them than they could heat to the set temp. This contributed to the general "it doesn't work" mentality, and rightly so. They didn't work!

33 degrees? In my favorite soup nazi voice... "no tankless for you"
 

OldPete

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The rest (most) of the world uses tankless... you have to wonder why we're one of the few that thinks it is smarter to keep a big container full of water on hand 24/7 and pay to keep it at a set temp. when you can have the water ready for you when you need it and no other time.

I have a tankless and can tell you, I'll *never* go back to the tank. I have no desire to pay the gas company to heat water that will only get cold. And then -- get ready -- pay them AGAIN to heat it up again... only for... it... to... get... yup, you guessed it. Get cold again.

But since it is easier for some plumbers to replace a tank then it is to learn about something new, the masses will be stuck wasting energy and money.

Tankless units and tank units BOTH need to be maintained. The fact that people who have tanks think otherwise pretty much speaks volumes to this topic, doesn't it?
 

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What's great about this thread is that it puts awareness out there that these units have considerable precautions.


I also know that the majority of the viewing public understands the difference between someone trying to sell a product,


and those who install/service/maintain/troubleshoot plumbing products on an everyday basis.


But the sales tactic of "Take this blood pressure medication because everyone has been using it for years next door and since it's working for me right now, you should take it. No harm no foul" doesn't surface in a good light for your ongoing premace to drum the idea it is great.


I give you credit tankless, you're holding up better than the last few tankless guys that come here to boast the sales drive. You are damn near agreeing with most of the points I'm driving at.


Once you understand, along with others in this new product that your customer base is being committed to a significant amount of discipline to use your product due to the limitations of hard water buildup, it will come natural to realize why a few of us know that the average homeowner puts it in and forgets it.


That's the reason I go into homes with the tops of the tanks cancered out from a small leak or a loose packing nut off the shutoff valve, that started years ago, not days.


You can save a cheerleader and save the world but I'm telling you, you are targeting a fraction of the consumer base that gets out the calculater and starts the comparison channel surfing of costs override and how I'm saving greenspace according to the EPA.


My customer base calls me solely on the front of "how fast can you get my hot water back up and running."


Put in another water heater last night; this time it was a 50gal GE PowerVent. The guy was heading back at midnight to his detail as he belonged to the 164th Airlift Squadron.


At first I didn't think he'd find a PowerVent heater but HD has a few left since they no longer are bringing them in and have to get rid of the ones they have. I located one for him, (Sears is order only on these PV's now) and I told him to steer clear of the Whirlpool brand. (told him I wouldn't install one from Whirlpool due to the problems with them)


He asked about tankless, asked him if he'd be able to maintain the unit or will his wife be able to maintain it while he's deployed in Iraq. "What do you mean?" he said in such a shocked manner. "Are you going to be able to clean this unit periodically, or your wife, on a continual basis to make it heat the water like it was doing the day you installed it?"


No easy way to vent a tankless in his basement either; all finished. He spent $700 on his PowerVent water heater and almost $400 with me last night in 10 degree weather outside.


That water almost felt like it would give you frostbite if you ran the water out of the faucet onto your hands.


Now envision me putting a tankless in because I'm all giddy and shit trying to start the "new wave" of technology in this guy's basement.


He goes on the cheap, put's in a 8gpm tankless with 40 degree water passing through the unit and his wife can't take a shower when the washing machine and dishwasher are running, like they used to be able to do when they had a tank heater.


I say make this thread freaking huge, 20 pages long and let me keep bringing up my recent case by case situations where in the minds of many, the limitations are clearly evident....


and I'm not making these up; this situation presents itself whether it is the climate, the hard water area, the sizing of the tankless which definitely dictates cost solely, the periodic maintenance of the units as opposed to "put it in and forget it" common habits of the end user, the lack of trained hands to work on these units when it comes time to work on them.


I'm lying if I say I don't have customers, frustated as hell calling me at wits end trying to find someone, anyone to come fix their "save the world" technology they were sold into buying.


Two families I worked for this weekend @ a premium rate had hot water this morning. Can't say that for anyone in the situation of a tankless. This coming thursday would be a more realistic timeline, figuring the shipping of products by mail, when dealing with tankless.


Tankless I spaced my paragraphs and one-liners so you could more easily cut and paste my statements a little bit easier. See, I'm here for you. Might not feel that way, but I'm here for you. Kinda like taking you in like a son I never had. :D
 

OldPete

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RUGGED said:
What's great about this thread is that it puts awareness out there that these units have considerable precautions.


I also know that the majority of the viewing public understands the difference between someone trying to sell a product,


and those who install/service/maintain/troubleshoot plumbing products on an everyday basis.


But the sales tactic of "Take this blood pressure medication because everyone has been using it for years next door and since it's working for me right now, you should take it. No harm no foul" doesn't surface in a good light for your ongoing premace to drum the idea it is great.


I give you credit tankless, you're holding up better than the last few tankless guys that come here to boast the sales drive. You are damn near agreeing with most of the points I'm driving at.


Once you understand, along with others in this new product that your customer base is being committed to a significant amount of discipline to use your product due to the limitations of hard water buildup, it will come natural to realize why a few of us know that the average homeowner puts it in and forgets it.


That's the reason I go into homes with the tops of the tanks cancered out from a small leak or a loose packing nut off the shutoff valve, that started years ago, not days.


You can save a cheerleader and save the world but I'm telling you, you are targeting a fraction of the consumer base that gets out the calculater and starts the comparison channel surfing of costs override and how I'm saving greenspace according to the EPA.


My customer base calls me solely on the front of "how fast can you get my hot water back up and running."


Put in another water heater last night; this time it was a 50gal GE PowerVent. The guy was heading back at midnight to his detail as he belonged to the 164th Airlift Squadron.


At first I didn't think he'd find a PowerVent heater but HD has a few left since they no longer are bringing them in and have to get rid of the ones they have. I located one for him, (Sears is order only on these PV's now) and I told him to steer clear of the Whirlpool brand. (told him I wouldn't install one from Whirlpool due to the problems with them)


He asked about tankless, asked him if he'd be able to maintain the unit or will his wife be able to maintain it while he's deployed in Iraq. "What do you mean?" he said in such a shocked manner. "Are you going to be able to clean this unit periodically, or your wife, on a continual basis to make it heat the water like it was doing the day you installed it?"


No easy way to vent a tankless in his basement either; all finished. He spent $700 on his PowerVent water heater and almost $400 with me last night in 10 degree weather outside.


That water almost felt like it would give you frostbite if you ran the water out of the faucet onto your hands.


Now envision me putting a tankless in because I'm all giddy and shit trying to start the "new wave" of technology in this guy's basement.


He goes on the cheap, put's in a 8gpm tankless with 40 degree water passing through the unit and his wife can't take a shower when the washing machine and dishwasher are running, like they used to be able to do when they had a tank heater.


I say make this thread freaking huge, 20 pages long and let me keep bringing up my recent case by case situations where in the minds of many, the limitations are clearly evident....


and I'm not making these up; this situation presents itself whether it is the climate, the hard water area, the sizing of the tankless which definitely dictates cost solely, the periodic maintenance of the units as opposed to "put it in and forget it" common habits of the end user, the lack of trained hands to work on these units when it comes time to work on them.


I'm lying if I say I don't have customers, frustated as hell calling me at wits end trying to find someone, anyone to come fix their "save the world" technology they were sold into buying.


Two families I worked for this weekend @ a premium rate had hot water this morning. Can't say that for anyone in the situation of a tankless. This coming thursday would be a more realistic timeline, figuring the shipping of products by mail, when dealing with tankless.


Tankless I spaced my paragraphs and one-liners so you could more easily cut and paste my statements a little bit easier. See, I'm here for you. Might not feel that way, but I'm here for you. Kinda like taking you in like a son I never had. :D

I had a "tank" my entire life and I was NEVER able to shower, do wash, and run the dishwasher at once.

With the tankless I can do all those things and never run out of water...

But I'm a stupid DIYer that doesn't know a thing. :p
 

Dunbar Plumbing

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OldPete said:
Oh... and YIKES... with the prices some of you guys are quoting... $3000-6000... no wonder people stay away from them...

I mean for the prices you guys are aiming at one could get one of these:

http://www.tanklesswater.com/product.asp?product=GT-199DVN

and still have a pile of cash left over.

But again, I don't know anything... ;)


You forgot this page,

http://www.tanklesswater.com/category.asp?subcat=Tankless-Water-Heater-Accessories&manufacturer=4-Venting

Start adding those up for distance needed, along with the return intake which will be cheaper.

Plumbers do not charge "handyman" prices to install these.


I had a "tank" my entire life and I was NEVER able to shower, do wash, and run the dishwasher at once.

With the tankless I can do all those things and never run out of water...

But I'm a stupid DIYer that doesn't know a thing. :p

People do that all the time, you excluded.


Anyone want to comment on how some of these water heaters lasted 10-20-30 years sometimes?

I pulled a dial-a-matic out last year, and it wasn't even leaking. The old man said 30 years is enough to retire ole betsy. I'm sure it wasn't very efficient but it's longevity was unmatched with only 2 thermocouple replacements over 30 years.


:yawns:
 
Last edited:

OldPete

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Ok, so let's add another $1000 for extras. (Even though the materials are closer to $400.)

So we're up to $1500... from there you get to $3000.00 to $6000.00

Ummm... Handyman or not, that's $1500-$4500 profit for less than 3 hours worth of work.

My lawyer gets $475 an hour and he's on the high-high end of the scale.

Sorry, but please don't turn this into a "Handyman" "DIYer are dumb" issue. It sounds more like "Let's put some fear into homeowners and keep them buying units that only last 7-9 years. Instead of 20".

And for each of the people you find that have had a tank for 30 years, how many have had it 7 (give or take a year)?

Quoting the exception is silly. And saying that I can take a shower, do a load of wash AND run my dishwasher all with the "Average" size tank is a stone-faced lie. I can't even take 1.5 showers with a 40.

Ugh. It's amazing people ever try new technology in this country. I'm surprised we're not still carrying our laundry down to the creek.

Tankless water heaters are clearly the better choice. Especially the new technology with higher GPM and better transfer methods. I have an older technology unit (Baxi) and don't have anything bad to say about it, except that I'm one of the few people that know how to work on them. It is a much more complicated unit than just straight DHW (this one does both heat and DHW -- so there's more to it. To hear professionals scoff at the technology is just plain silly.

The person that gave the Iraq solider story... shame on you. You could have saved that person a lot of money in energy costs and a better quality of life. Instead now, she can worry about the next time her tank is going to spring a leak and flood her basement, or perhaps the next time the pressure valve is going to get stuck open.

Oh Well...
 
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