Jadnashua
Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx
Old Pete, newer is not always better. I just had a new high-tech condensing boiler with outdoor reset control added. It probably cost me 150% more than a more conventional one, and even with the increase in efficiency and the rebate from the utility company, I'll never recoup those additional costs. Nobody knows where energy costs will really go, but the trend definately is and probably will remain up. I bought it because I wanted it. Some people will do that with tankless. In my case, my boiler starts at 94% efficiency, and for most tasks probably exceeds 98% (i.e., when it is not running at full tilt,which is most of the time). I'm using it to heat my water, too. The better tanks have about a 1/4-degree/hour standby loss. Where is the huge waste? It isn't there. The boiler is more efficient than most if not all tankless units, and I've got a huge amount of water that will supply all of my expected needs at a very good price. The heat exchanger tubes and tank are SS, so, since it isn't seeing very big temperature extremes, should last forever for all practical purposes, with maybe a change of temperature sensor.
Where I live, as indicated, the incoming water is often just above freezing in the winter. FOr those in more temperate climes, a tankless system can probably provide lots of water, but here, you'd have to run a couple of units in series to have the volume I desire. I frequently fill a 40-gallon air tub in about 5-minutes. That's around 8-gallons/minute. I can do this while the dishwasher is running, for some reason, or someone else happens to be taking a shower, or just decides to wash their hands.
So, and I don't think I'm alone, there are alternatives. The average person doesn't want to do anything except buy the thing - they don't want to do any maintenance. To get the full life and performance out of a tankless, you must either pay for or do maintenance on the thing on a regular basis, especially if your water is unconditioned and hard. Choosing one of the more efficient tanks means you can probably buy three or more for the price of installing one tankless, with less maintenance, and potentially similar energy costs. If you are using electrical, those are 100% efficient, and to do the same thing with an electrical tankless would require a huge supply, which most places don't have. Same thing with using gas...you need a significant gas line, meter, and main line to get anywhere near the capacity of a tank type. In some places, you pay for that peak demand supply, even if you don't use it very often - i.e., your base costs are higher all of the time.
Many people ignore the free space air makeup requirements for a big burner required to supply that 6-gallons/minute flow of that tankless system. I looked into it, and I did NOT have a big enough space to meet the manufacturer's specs without putting about 3 square feet of louvered holes in the walls. Some of them use closed combustion, and that helps.
There are many things to consider...tankless is NOT the answer for everyone, and just as some rant for one, you are ranting for the other. Sometimes, both can be correct, but just like buying a pair of shoes, one size and style does not suit everyone, and in some cases, just plain won't work!
If your house is set up for it, and your use patterns allow its use, and your physical conditions are right (your incoming water isn't barely above freezing as mine is for several months of the year), then yes, it can work. But, it is much more expensive initially, requires more maintenance, and isn't that much more efficient than some of the better tank types, and isn't as good as my indirect tank on my highly efficient boiler.
Some have said they don't like the boiler for keeping water hot in the summer when the boiler wouldn't normally need to run, but with the new high efficieny, condensing units, they only have a little over a gallon of water in the burner and are designed for cold starts. Older designs were not anywhere near as efficient. The same may be true of the tankless systems, but they just aren't equal.
Where I live, as indicated, the incoming water is often just above freezing in the winter. FOr those in more temperate climes, a tankless system can probably provide lots of water, but here, you'd have to run a couple of units in series to have the volume I desire. I frequently fill a 40-gallon air tub in about 5-minutes. That's around 8-gallons/minute. I can do this while the dishwasher is running, for some reason, or someone else happens to be taking a shower, or just decides to wash their hands.
So, and I don't think I'm alone, there are alternatives. The average person doesn't want to do anything except buy the thing - they don't want to do any maintenance. To get the full life and performance out of a tankless, you must either pay for or do maintenance on the thing on a regular basis, especially if your water is unconditioned and hard. Choosing one of the more efficient tanks means you can probably buy three or more for the price of installing one tankless, with less maintenance, and potentially similar energy costs. If you are using electrical, those are 100% efficient, and to do the same thing with an electrical tankless would require a huge supply, which most places don't have. Same thing with using gas...you need a significant gas line, meter, and main line to get anywhere near the capacity of a tank type. In some places, you pay for that peak demand supply, even if you don't use it very often - i.e., your base costs are higher all of the time.
Many people ignore the free space air makeup requirements for a big burner required to supply that 6-gallons/minute flow of that tankless system. I looked into it, and I did NOT have a big enough space to meet the manufacturer's specs without putting about 3 square feet of louvered holes in the walls. Some of them use closed combustion, and that helps.
There are many things to consider...tankless is NOT the answer for everyone, and just as some rant for one, you are ranting for the other. Sometimes, both can be correct, but just like buying a pair of shoes, one size and style does not suit everyone, and in some cases, just plain won't work!
If your house is set up for it, and your use patterns allow its use, and your physical conditions are right (your incoming water isn't barely above freezing as mine is for several months of the year), then yes, it can work. But, it is much more expensive initially, requires more maintenance, and isn't that much more efficient than some of the better tank types, and isn't as good as my indirect tank on my highly efficient boiler.
Some have said they don't like the boiler for keeping water hot in the summer when the boiler wouldn't normally need to run, but with the new high efficieny, condensing units, they only have a little over a gallon of water in the burner and are designed for cold starts. Older designs were not anywhere near as efficient. The same may be true of the tankless systems, but they just aren't equal.