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Thread: Which are the most efficient storage water heaters (gas)?

  1. #46
    Plumber solsacre's Avatar
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    It's a popular topic with no real answer.....



    which came first the chicken or the egg



    dances-with-pumps

  2. #47
    Master Plumber master plumber mark's Avatar
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    Talking sign that waiver....

    all they got to do is sign that waiver and I will

    install the best god da// tankless heater I can get

    my grubby hands on......


    lets see ...they can get a 75 gallon installed for about 1300
    and it will last about 10+ years.....produceing a constant
    135 degree temperature through -----hell and icewater....


    or they can install a tankless heater for about $3500++ with
    about the same life span results except they can expect a constant temp of 106-----which basically is --- PISSWATER----

    If they are happy with this , and sign that waiver,
    then god bless them , I will gladly take their money......

    For $3500++
    I will even piss down their backs if they want a demo
    on how the tankless hot water will feel.....

  3. #48
    Plumber solsacre's Avatar
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    I've had mixed feelings about the tankless that I've installed...... You have'to "over size" the water heaters or the customer will be disapointed... anyone that skimps on the size will hate them....

    you get what you pay for....

    will you save enough on power to install cost ????



    dances-with-pumps
    Last edited by Terry; 04-27-2010 at 01:45 AM.

  4. #49
    Master Plumber Dunbar Plumbing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solsacre
    It's a popular topic with no real answer.....



    which came first the chicken or the egg



    dances-with-pumps

    LOL! The farmer

    But did he eat the egg, or the chicken first to know which one tasted good????
    Read what the end of this sentence means.

  5. #50
    In the Trades GoTanklessToday's Avatar
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    I also know that the majority of the viewing public understands the difference between someone trying to sell a product, and those who install/service/maintain/troubleshoot plumbing products on an everyday basis.

    What you think you are seeing and what is really happening are at opposite ends of the spectrum. I forgot more about water heaters than you will EVER know. I've been dealing with hot water systems solely for 20 years. I am a working installer who installs 3-4 tanks a day, and 2-3 tankless a week. I have installed in excess of 16000 water heaters, 99.9 % of which were tanks. There was a time when I was ignorant like you and I remember it well. See.... I was installing tankless heaters in 1987. I remember well when they hit the scene here in the northwest. I put 3 in one week, and took them back out the next. TRUST me, I was not a proponent of tankless at all. I did everything I could to downplay them. I talked customers out of them a zillion times. I refused to accept them because the european models that we sold back then were not designed for whole house installation. Then the Japanese models hit the US market in force. In fall of 2003 I had a booth at the Seattle Home Show, where I had some tanks and a few tankless systems on display. This is when the lightbulb came on for me. I had people actually come running to my booth to see the tankless heaters. My neighbors in the home show were so tired of all the traffic I was getting, and by the end of each night I couldn't talk at all becaue my voice was gone. I ran out of brochures on day 2 of a 5 day show. We sold a PILE of heaters.

    And for the record, when I say you are ignorant, it is not meant as an insult. Ignorant means "uninformed". "Shows lack of knowlege". I was surely ignorant too right up to that fall day in 2003. After that, I couldn't learn enough about them. I dedicated all my free time to learning about them and how to make them work for my customers. Why? Because I could see beyond a shadow of a doubt that my customers want them.


    But the sales tactic of "Take this blood pressure medication because everyone has been using it for years next door and since it's working for me right now, you should take it. No harm no foul" doesn't surface in a good light for your ongoing premace to drum the idea it is great.

    Huh? (scratches head) I never said that you should stop selling tanks, or that the tankless is the save all. When did I ever say that? The only reason this debate continues with my input is because I can see that you need my input. I'm trying to help you here.


    I give you credit tankless, you're holding up better than the last few tankless guys that come here to boast the sales drive. You are damn near agreeing with most of the points I'm driving at.

    I do agree. Actually, you agree with me. Or we agree. Whatever you want to say. Your points are valid, well, most of them. It's when you try to discredit the system that I feel the urge to "help" you (or anyone else that may be looking for sound info). It's not that you are saying "they may work in your part of the country, but they won't here because of the...... ". Some intelligent contractors from other areas have made comments to that tune, and as you can see, no one is out to drag them out and debate them. YOU know if they will work in your area. I don't. I know they will work in my area (and around the world for that matter). If I were in your area, I guarantee you that I could sell them. And my customers there would be just as happy. Sure, I'd have to learn all about water treatment systems, which is a good thing. I'd sell those too.


    My customer base calls me solely on the front of "how fast can you get my hot water back up and running."

    Us too. Our trucks roll with 2-3 tanks and a tankless system at all times.


    Now envision me putting a tankless in because I'm all giddy and **** trying to start the "new wave" of technology in this guy's basement.

    50 plus years. New wave?


    and I'm not making these up; this situation presents itself whether it is the climate, the hard water area, the sizing of the tankless which definitely dictates cost solely, the periodic maintenance of the units as opposed to "put it in and forget it" common habits of the end user, the lack of trained hands to work on these units when it comes time to work on them.

    Agree, agree agree. All valid points. It still doesn't mean that tankless heaters are not excellent options for the right customer. They aren't for everyone, but they do work, they last a long time, they save money, they provide endless hot water, etc etc etc.

    I'm lying if I say I don't have customers, frustated as hell calling me at wits end trying to find someone, anyone to come fix their "save the world" technology they were sold into buying.

    Once the contractors in your area learn how to install them correcly, and learn how to sell them, that problem will go away. Remember, I was where you are long ago.


    ............This coming thursday would be a more realistic timeline, figuring the shipping of products by mail, when dealing with tankless.

    Who's fault is that? I stock 10+ tankless heaters at all times, and do them same day all the time. Our trucks all have at least one system and asociated venting on board at all times. Our motto is "go tankless today". That means today. Not Thusday. Just offering some suggestions for you.


    Tankless I spaced my paragraphs and one-liners so you could more easily cut and paste my statements a little bit easier. See, I'm here for you. Might not feel that way, but I'm here for you. Kinda like taking you in like a son I never had.

    I really appreciate that, it did in fact make this easier to reply. I have a hunch in reality "me being here for you" is more like it. All in all though, I do appreciate the opportunity to spar with you. I hope you have learned something. I myself have learned from this post. I took it upon myself today to learn about hard water, and the problems associated with it. I wouldn't have done that if not for this debate. We're actually going to be testing the customer's water for hardness from here on out to make sure we can be proactive in dealing with those types of problems. It seems that they make a test kit that we can carry. I guess an old geezer like me can learn something new... hopefully you can too.

    Ok, one more time... tankless heaters are not for everyone. We sell them to those who want them, not to people who don't.
    Last edited by Cass; 01-30-2007 at 04:17 AM.

  6. #51
    Plumber/Gasfitter dubldare's Avatar
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    Ok, fun reading so far. Gotta add one of my stories to the mix.

    About 5 or 6 years ago, I was doing residential service in the Twin Cities. Get dispatched to a call for a WH replacement at 10am. Arrive at the customer's house, customer has a Bosch tankless he bought out of the back of a Popular Science magazine. He already had his 50 gal gas heater drained. Talk to the customer and am told that his current heater cannot cut the mustard. He keeps the thermostat set to the max and runs out of hot water. He averages 3 years on a heater between replacements. I tell him that this is quite odd, and that there may be a problem with the dip tube or a cross connection elsewhere in the house. Customer is not buying my shpiel, and all he wants is his new tankless installed.

    Luckily, the customer had 2# gas in his home, which made the gas part easy. After we got the unit hung on the wall, I sent my apprentice out after the venting components. I relocated a portion of his a/c line-set for the venting and connected the water to the tankless unit. The apprenti gets back and we do the venting and finish up the gas.

    The water heater location butted against the unfinished side of a bathroom wall.

    The male customer had gone back to his job counting beans or pushing paper, and his wife was now home. We fired up the new unit, using an extention cord out of our truck. Lords yes, we had hot water at the nearby laundry tub. I had the lady of the house try it upstairs. Hmm, I thought as I stood next to this tankless wonder, why does your draft fan not churn, I hear the flow of the water. The blower finally started, for 5 seconds, then off for 10 seconds, then on, then off. I yelled to his wife, "Are you running hot water?", "Yes, but it's not hot, it's lukewarm." was the reply. I adjusted the thermostat. "Try it now" I bellered, "Still not hot!" was the reply.

    I'd been looking at this old, mid seventies Moen tub/shower valve all day. Just for kicks, I grabbed the lines, hmmm, the hot is cold and the cold is cold. Go to the fixture and run it. Yep, plenty of hot water. Run hot water in the adjacent lav faucet.... it's cold.

    Morale of the story. Well, I took a check for $2200 dollars from the customer, plus whatever he paid for the "neverending hot water" machine. It turns out a $20 1225B was all that was causing his problem.


    Now, for my opinion.

    I come from the upper midwest. We keep our heaters inside. Theoretically, in my opinion, any heat loss from the heater (not counting the flue) goes to heat the conditioned space, which needs heating for 9 months of the year. We don't keep our heaters in garages or outside like some do elsewhere. Additionally, the majority of our water comes from a river, which, right about this time of year, our incoming water temps are right around 35. In the summer, our incomming water temps are around 55-60. Additionally, lime is used as a softening agent in our waters. Not quite friendly for tankless heaters.

    I tend to be rather pragmatic when it comes to tankless heaters. I have been to a few training classes for different units, but have each time walked away feeling that it's a "not ready for prime time" technology. Many of the sizing examples are overly optimistic, all parts are proprietary to a given manufacturer, and the misnomer of never-ending hot water is one that an installer can easily be 'burnt' by if he doesn't know the ins and outs. Additionally, not alot of plumbers can properly size gas piping. It is insanely simple, but it must be said that it is few and far between that you can find a gas system in a house that can handle an additional 150K btu load.

    Many times, if one takes time with a customer to find their motivations, you will find that they either have an undersized system, or an underutilized system. I say underutilized relating to tank temperature. It is amazing the gains in capacity in just 10 of tank temperature. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

    I push for a tank type system merely for its redundancy. Thermocouple: standard, pilot assembly: standard, gas control: standard, entire unit: readily available. Technological know-how: standard.

    Late this afternoon I was cornered by one of our salesmen about installing a tankless in an exisitng home. I'm not so sure he's so sold on selling them now.
    --Customers of plumbers: Never be afraid to ask for proof of licensure of the plumber servicing your equipment. A licensed plumber will be proud to show you his personal license.--

  7. #52
    In the Trades GoTanklessToday's Avatar
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    all they got to do is sign that waiver and I will install the best god da// tankless heater I can get my grubby hands on......[/B]

    I'd be interested to see one of those waivers...


    ...or they can install a tankless heater for about $3500++ with
    about the same life span results except they can expect a constant temp of 106-----which basically is --- PISSWATER--

    Please take your thermometer into the shower with you tonight. Test the water temp. If you can stand more than 106, then you are WAY tougher than I am. Why heat the water with a tankles sup higher than 106 when you are showering? Let's see... pay to heat it up.. then immediately cool it back off before it comes out the shower head. Hmmmm. I'd work in a hill billy wise crack here, but I'm still trying to figure out how I'm gonna talk you into getting me tickets to the big race in May.
    Last edited by GoTanklessToday; 01-29-2007 at 07:35 PM.

  8. #53
    DIY Senior Member OldPete's Avatar
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    I wish I could address each comment...

    I'll cut mine shorter this time. The last Bosch unit I installed was $425 for the unit and another $200 for odds and ends.

    I don't think I've EVER seen ANYONE run 20 feet of venting... That is just insane -- but that's me. Everytime I've seen it or done it, you either mounted it on an exterior wall, or near one. And move the lines, if needed.

    Total material cost has *never* been over $1000.

    I may be showing some kind of something to somebody... but I know what I know.

    As far as my lawyer charging too much? I'm in the highest per-capital wealth state in the union. That rate is average for an A-class attorney.

    Anyway. No point in this conversation. The people who are scared of technology will continue to be so, and those who want to try it will also.

    All I can tell you is that in Italy in 1970 tankless wall mounted water heaters were, and still are, the standard in water heating. You heat water when you need it.

    As far as the 1/4 degree per hour... I dunno about that one. I have one tank left to deal with in a basement. Right now that basement is 60*f.

    Have fun as the battle rages on.


  9. #54
    Plumber/Gasfitter dubldare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldPete
    The last Bosch unit I installed was $425 for the unit and another $200 for odds and ends.

    I don't think I've EVER seen ANYONE run 20 feet of venting... That is just insane -- but that's me. Everytime I've seen it or done it, you either mounted it on an exterior wall, or near one. And move the lines, if needed.

    Total material cost has *never* been over $1000.
    Okay, but what do you charge for labor? Total package, what does it run?



    Quote Originally Posted by OldPete
    As far as my lawyer charging too much? I'm in the highest per-capital wealth state in the union. That rate is average for an A-class attorney.
    Haven't had to get in all close and googly with any attorneys lately. You go you!



    Quote Originally Posted by OldPete
    All I can tell you is that in Italy in 1970 tankless wall mounted water heaters were, and still are, the standard in water heating. You heat water when you need it.


    Sherman, set the wayback machine to Italy, circa 1970!!!



    Nothing perturbes me more than those who compare us to europeans. The crux of the matter is that europeans live much simpler than we Americans. Sure they may have tankless heaters, but they are not fed the "unending supply of hot water" shpiel that we get. They do still understand a bit of having to wait, that all things are not readily available.

    Here is where our cultures are different. Where they can wait, we can't. We have been learned that you can have it all, whenever you want it. Where they can put on a single tank of $5/gallon gas and drive the length and breadth of their country, we cannot. Is one wrong and one right? That is to the eye of the beholder.

    Quite simply, don't put your oranges with my apples.
    --Customers of plumbers: Never be afraid to ask for proof of licensure of the plumber servicing your equipment. A licensed plumber will be proud to show you his personal license.--

  10. #55
    Master Plumber Dunbar Plumbing's Avatar
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    Default Okay, I'm getting somewhere now

    Quote Originally Posted by GoTanklessToday
    What you think you are seeing and what is really happening are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Not really, you are trying to sell something and I'm trying to explain something with no benefit of the subject matter. I forgot < I'm assuming you meant "know" more about water heaters than you will EVER know.Okay internet warrior, you beat me I've been dealing with hot water systems solely for 20 years. And I haven't? I am a working installer who installs 3-4 tanks a day, and 2-3 tankless a week. Damn, you SUPA-MAN! I have installed in excess of 16000 water heaters, YOU ARE, SUPA-MAN! 99.9 % of which were tanks. There was a time when I was ignorant like you and I remember it well. Wow, I'm honored See.... I was installing tankless heaters in 1987. I remember well when they hit the scene here in the northwest. I put 3 in one week, and took them back out the next.Wow, now that is one great revelation tankless, they are doing that in my area too, and it's 2007. TRUST me,I do, it's the internet, I believe everything I read. I was not a proponent of tankless at all. I did everything I could to downplay them. I talked customers out of them a zillion times.I don't do that; I just tell them the truth of what to expect when you buy one.

    And for the record, when I say you are ignorant, it is not meant as an insult. Ignorant means "uninformed". "Shows lack of knowlege". Don't worry, I know I'm ignorant, I'm as dumb as a tankless heater mounted on a wall in my tri-state area knowing the costs incurred, the temperature rise due to climate conditions, and this blessed hard water that limes up faucets/angle stops/water lines/fittings/valves/water heaters/aerators........you get the point
    I was surely ignorant too right up to that fall day in 2003. I've been that ignaraant and longer since 2003 After that, I couldn't learn enough about them. An addiction I'm sure with financial endeavors that make you join website forums like these that spread the word like a preacher in a church with the world as his audience. Comon, sell me something, show me the way.I dedicated all my free time to learning about them and how to make them work for my customers.I dedicate my free time on these sites and my customers to make sure they make conscientous buying decisions whether it is an angle stop, a jacuzzi tub, a water heater or a 2" fernco. Either way, they get the best knowledge I can throw at them without underlining financial motive and masking the realities of their buying decisions. Why? Because I could see beyond a shadow of a doubt that my customers want them. So, you are toting Sylvia Brown powers huh? I guess if you are installing 16,000 water heaters, I can believe you are in their heads as well.



    I do agree. Actually, you agree with me. Or we agree. Whatever you want to say. Your points are valid, well, most of them.Then why is this a discussion at this point . Listen, I know you could sell them in my area. But if you move away years down the road and these people are getting reduced GPM flow out of their units, where are you going to be with the new heat exchanger, and will you replace it for free even though you KNOW people won't maintain them like they should. The answer is no because you can't make money like that. You expect everyone to throw thousands instead of hundreds for these devices. If you are getting it, great. My area doesn't bring that luxury due to the situations in my area. You make it sound like though it can, there's the reason for my opposition. I'm the one getting the calls that are victims of these units because they are failing, miserably with no one to work on them. You jump over that factoid very well.

    Why? I know why....it's apparent. You are here to sell your product, nothing else. I'd be viscious like you as well if I know the dollar runs the show. You got more than you bargained for with that "market hype" statement you made in this thread.




    Us too. Our trucks roll with 2-3 tanks and a tankless system at all times. DO YOU DRIVE AROUND IN A SCHOOL BUS?????




    50 plus years. New wave? Your words my friend, you are the one stating they are a recent addition to the states. Tankless water heaters are 1 to every 2000 in my area.....and I bet that number is a great deal higher on the tank side.




    Agree, agree agree. All valid points. It still doesn't mean that tankless heaters are not excellent options for the right customer. They aren't for everyone, but they do work, they last a long time, they save money, they provide endless hot water, etc etc etc. Blah blah blah, you agree but sell sell sell. They do work, I know they work, in unique situations where water problems and temperature rise is NOT an issue. ALSO, trained hands to fix them and parts availability is the keyword you so ignore when these units fail. Listening to you it would have the masses believe that they never fail. That's deception and I'm calling you out to own up to the math.



    Once the contractors in your area learn how to install them correcly, and learn how to sell them, that problem will go away. Remember, I was where you are long ago. Okay folks, Tankless believes that any tankless water heater installed that quits working, is solely the fault of the plumber and never the quality of the product. Let's ignore water hardness and product failure, tankless is here to save the day.




    Who's fault is that? I stock 10+ tankless heaters at all times, and do them same day all the time. Our trucks all have at least one system and asociated venting on board at all times. Our motto is "go tankless today". That means today. Not Thusday. Just offering some suggestions for you. Come to my area, make your millions, you sound brainwashed by the company that sells you their product enough to glaze the thousands with your implied logic. The rule is that you stick around and deal with the customer relations that follows when you try to sell something that doesn't quite "fit the mold" like you state does, everywhere.




    I really appreciate that, it did in fact make this easier to reply. I have a hunch in reality "me being here for you" is more like it.Yep, I've been waiting all my life to find you, here. All in all though, I do appreciate the opportunity to spar with you. I hope you have learned something.I've learned the same thing I've learned from most all internet forum boards that I moderate and are a active member of,

    I watch all the questions regarding product choices from across the united states compile on numerous forums with people looking for answers. I then get to see the repetition of posts, product issues and product failures that are either regional or isolated, brand related or comprised of products with humble beginnings. I try to NOT be opinionated on these subject lines but when the advertisers come and join to promote product, I have fun. I exercise my knowledge of the "what ifs" and codes so anyone and everyone can make good conscious buying decisions in relation to plumbing.

    I myself have learned from this post. I'm not afraid to learn and I'm pretty sure I'm the first to state that I have many years ahead of me to learn a great deal of this profession. What I refuse to do in your case is agree with some of your selling points that this product works everywhere and if you don't agree with me, well, it's the plumber's fault it isn't working.



    Ok, one more time... tankless heaters are not for everyone. We sell them to those who want them, not to people who don't. It's great to see that statement, just educate your buying public of what kind of money their investment entails along with the cost of maintenance if they are not individually capable of doing it themselves.

    If anything, you now know that water hardness plays a role in the efficiency of these units, along with tank heaters.

    BUT, I would think that if you have installed 16,000 of these,

    how come you didn't know that already?

    At this point, it doesn't matter if you answer that last question or not.

    There is a place for different products at different times at different places and different sizes. All in all I know I'm making valid points for those to understand that I have entirely no financial motive in any of this, NONE.

    I don't make anything promoting tank heaters, they've been around for years. But when you are aggressive in "hiding" the facts about any product, I do my best to make sure the whole story is laid out for everyone to see.

    I'd want someone like me (consumer) detailing the "what ifs/hows and whys before I spent 1000's of dollars instead of the norm, hundreds.

    Those yellow tag energy guides for cost of operation do have some truth to them, you know. I believe electric tank heaters run around $400 a year to operate and gas whether PowerVent or regular flue run around $200-$300

    On your number of water heaters, you got me beat by 15,000 I'm sure.

    Ryan Seacrest, OUT!
    Last edited by Dunbar Plumbing; 01-29-2007 at 08:41 PM.
    Read what the end of this sentence means.

  11. #56
    In the Trades GoTanklessToday's Avatar
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    As for understanding hard water, like I have said numerous times, we don't have hard water in my area. When I drain a 20 year old tank, every drop will be clear (unless the tank rusted out). We don't flush our heaters here like you have to do in other parts of the country.


    And I haven't?

    No. I'll bet on it. Maybe 10 years max. But that's just my hunch based on your mentality and your age.


    An addiction I'm sure with financial endeavors that make you join website forums like these that spread the word like a preacher in a church with the world as his audience. Comon, sell me something, show me the way

    I don't plumb for fun. I don't crawl under houses and wear my knees out because I like it. I missed my chance to marry money. After my time in the USAF, I realized there isn't a real big call for fighter jet crew chiefs in the real world. At the ripe age of 27, I started plumbing. I hate it to be honest. I'd rather fish, hunt and tour the world. But no one gives me anything. So I plumb. Financial endeavors... you bet. Anything that will put money in my pocket and pay for my son's college, then I'm all for it. And I am trying to show you the way. My grandma used to say "there is no one so blind as one who refuses to see"



    There is a place for different products at different times at different places and different sizes. All in all I know I'm making valid points for those to understand that I have entirely no financial motive in any of this, NONE.

    So lets see if I understand this... you are a professional plumber, who sells your wares, services, etc. Are you telling me that you don't need the income associated with learning new methods and product? Maybe that's the root of the problem.



    I don't make anything promoting tank heaters, they've been around for years. But when you are aggressive in "hiding" the facts about any product, I do my best to make sure the whole story is laid out for everyone to see.

    That's laughable. It is obvious that you don't know half of the story. Keep it up, you'll get there.


    Those yellow tag energy guides for cost of operation do have some truth to them, you know. I believe electric tank heaters run around $400 a year to operate and gas whether PowerVent or regular flue run around $200-$300

    Yup, I tell every customer that they will save about 30% on their hot water bill if they are using a gas tank. Then immediately thereafter, I tell them what that actually means. You don't buy one for the savings. You will save, but it's a small number because natural gas is already cheap (here anyway). Electricity and propane are a different story.


    What I refuse to do in your case is agree with some of your selling points that this product works everywhere

    Don't make me go back and count the number of times I said tankless heaters aren't for everyone. I also admitted that we install way more tanks than tankless, even here in my area that's full of high-techies, and millionaires.


    As I glance over your replies, I realize that you are fighting your own battle and chest thumping here like the typical 30 something self described expert. This exchange has gotten away from the main point, and frankly you are starting to bore the hell out of me. So learn them or don't. Just don't try to say you give your customers the whole story.

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