Which are the most efficient storage water heaters (gas)?

[GoTanklessToday]

We mid west plumbers just cant sell those
new fangled tankless heaters .... especialy for
some billy-bobs double wide trailer .....

believe me,
their are a LOT of " billy -bobs" in the mid west


Basically, I am doing a cost feasibility study to see if a tankles heater would go well in this area....

so what DO you charge in Seattle for the

Tankless heater???? average ball park instll????

LOL, we have some billy bob's here too..

The standard tankless system here in Seattle will average about $3000.00 plus tax.

[master plumber mark]

Billey bob would probably throw me out of his

double wide trailer if I tried to sell him a tankless heater for

$3000.....

He could put 1 40 gallon gas heater with a 10

year warranty for 800 bucks !!! and save $2200...

He would say to me as he icked my ass off his
front pourch.....

Thats a lot of beer money I would be pissing away
just to have a tankless heater.......

and I could buy me a bass boat with the difference too!!!


these mid west hill-billies aint stupid you know,
they were not born yesterday


,



At $3000 , I get the feeling you are installing these tankless heaters

for rich Millionairre Micorsoft employees and other high techey people in Seattle that

need to feel "ecologically correct" and basically have more money

than they have common sense...... (or they just dont like beer)


you are lucky to live in an area that has money just fallling off the trees......


here in the Ohio valley and Indiana you have to cater to a more frugal crowd...

http://www.weilhammerplumbing.com/houseofhorrors/

[srdenny]

The standard tankless system here in Seattle will average about $3000.00 plus tax.[/QUOTE]

Tankless
Does that include running a new gas line and Cat III flue?

I did one last week which I had quoted $6000 for. Turns out I should have charged $7000.

[srdenny]

Heat exchanger maintenance is made quite simple by using the Webstone "Isolator" valve kit when installing a tankless. Two buckets, a bottle of CLR, a couple of old washing machine hoses and a small pump and the job of cleaning the exchanger is accomplished in 10 minutes by the cabaña boy.

[master plumber mark]

Heat exchanger maintenance is made quite simple by using the Webstone "Isolator" valve kit when installing a tankless. Two buckets, a bottle of CLR, a couple of old washing machine hoses and a small pump and the job of cleaning the exchanger is accomplished in 10 minutes by the cabaña boy.

anyone who would pay 6 + grand to have a tankless water heater is
literally out of their minds......LOL


when you could put a normal 50 gallon gas heater in for around
1000 with a 10 year warranty, and never have to touch it again
you willl NEVER recoup your 6000 investment......

I sell people a LIFETIME gas 50 gallon installed for $1800.....

and if you put a blanket on it ,
and or a bi-metal heat baffle in the chimmney
I would venture to guess it is much more
efficinet than the tankless unit....
---------------------------------------------------------------


if you can get that kind of money from soneone,
more power to you, I guess...


but someone still has to do the maintaince occasioinally
and it probably will be ignored by
the customer untill it is in very dire need of service.....

I dont know what a cabana boy makes per hour,

but if you send a plumber out to the home its gonna be a min of $150
to de-lime that unit.....and that is the only fella I would allow to
touch my 6,000 dollar investment....

now how often should this $6000 tankless unit be serviced???


but I suppose if someone is crazy enough to pay 6,000 for a tankless
what is $150 twice a year mean to them anyway???

[GoTanklessToday]

Heat exchanger maintenance is made quite simple by using the Webstone "Isolator" valve kit when installing a tankless. Two buckets, a bottle of CLR, a couple of old washing machine hoses and a small pump and the job of cleaning the exchanger is accomplished in 10 minutes by the cabaña boy.

I agree. Those who are scared of tankless just haven't taken time to understand them. And for the record our customers aren't buying tankless because of all the money they will save. They want unlimited hot water. Our average customer household income is in excess of 100K. Sure, we do installs for affluent customers, but we do just as many for police officers, school teachers, and factory workers.

Our customers want them. If those of you heel draggers would put as much energy into selling them as you do trying to discredit them, your customers will love them too. Again, they aren't for everyone, so don't try to sell them to everyone.

Our avg price is 3k, which includes gas and venting. We install about 50 a month now. That may sound like a lot to some, but there is one contractor in California who is installing in excess of 200 a month. Every month.

[master plumber mark]

I would love to install 200 a month...of anything..

but I know $3000 would not fly well here......


I used to install solar panels a long time ago and
they had all the information to prove a pay back
in so many years for the investment....
or course it was all smoke and mirrors...



With what or how do you do to justify the extra costs
to the customer..???

I am sure you must have some sort of pay back
calculations or estimates??

or are people just flocking to you because it is the
newest fad and they have seen it all on the internet??


They see the promise of "unlimited hot water"
and just take a blind leap of faith???

So do they even think "why do I need unlimited hot water"
how long do i really need to be in the shower for???


Though I dont think that the tankless can provide unlimited hot
water to more than one fixture at a time....

it just grabs them I suppose...and wont let go......

and then they write that big check

[jadnashua]

Where I live, you need to raise the incoming water nearly 80 degrees to have comfortable water at the shower. Now, for 2.5gallon/min head and an 85% efficient system, that's about a 113KBTU unit. That's not hot enough for your dishwasher, and if you want to fill the tub in anything like a timely fashion, most valves are in the order of 6 gallons/minute, so that's about 271KBTU/hr unit. Try running the washing machine, or nearly anything else at the sametime,and your needs ramp up radically. Now, in the summer, the loads are much less, since the incoming water is probably 30 degrees warmer. Having lived with one for awhile, unless you live in a temperate location (discounting all other issues), it just doesn't work out. Much ofthe mid-western USA can get stretchs of below zero for awhile - the incoming water approaches freezing. It just doesn't work out - a tank is a much preferable situation. Yes, some of the tankless are designed to allow them to be run in serial to provide larger heat rises, or larger flows, but now you have two units to worry about for maintenance. The physics just don't make it reasonable unless the user is willing to make lifestyle changes. And at that, the hardware costs more, too. WHy?

[Dunbar Plumbing]

The following events took place between 8:24 pm and 2:04 am
Events occur, in turned based time.

Customer calls last night, a referral from HD. Customer has 5 bathrooms and 7 adults living at their home. Both the upstairs and downstairs of this house is completely finished with full kitchen (parents live with kids, not the other way around) First words out of the customer's mouth, "I'm sitting over here at LW's, just left HD because they didn't have a tankless water heater to buy. HD sells Poloma sp? and they were out. I "already" know this customer has been influenced by the market hype of these tankless units, otherwise it wouldn't of been the first words out of his mouth.

I start talking to him, asked him how close the main trunk line of the gas service is. He told me it is on the opposite side of the furnace next to the water heater. I told him the absolute minimum need for his application starts at 3/4" and goes up. Given his demand with 7 adults will be safe to say 1" is more realistic, don't you think?

Mind you, this is an emergency call; this guy ONLY cares about having hot water come monday morning @ 6am. The sun could fall from the sky, it doesn't matter to him. He's has to worry about showers come monday morning before they go to work. I found out the unit this customer wanted to buy that was a Poloma was $200 with a 4-7.5 gpm flow rating.

See the problem here? The customer drives for the cheap, the reality of his situation calls for a much higher GPM rating on his unit to accomplish hot water on demand with the combination of other demands (dishwasher/washing machine) without a lower temperature because of the shared use.

I explained to the customer that in our area that calcium buildup/liming of the heat exchanger requires cabana boy to clean it periodically to maintain it's original efficiency to maintain that GPM flow it was so gloriously remarked about to convince the masses that it will serve your needs.

Verbatim from the customer, "Well it sounds like you are trying to talk me out of the tankless." I replied, "No, I'm telling you the reality of these units and what you have to value what your personal time is worth to keep maintaining this unit." "You have substantial costs to install it, major rework of the gas line along with substantial costs involved in running the new flue for the tankless." "The unit you are purchasing has to be ran in stainless steel due to the high temperature of the burned gases which is in excess of 500 degrees." "Galvanised piping cannot be used due to the high temperature, the creation of toxic fumes and condensation which is detrimental to the tankless unit." "In other words there is no way you are going to afford me even during regular scheduled hours along with the cost of a tankless unit along with the vent kit and all the ceilings I have to tear down to install this unit."

He said, "We'll, I guess we consider ourselves pretty fortunate with our current situation." "Our water heater is 14 years old and we've never had to do anything until now." < A.O. Smith tank. 50 gallon gas regular vented.

He basically scoffed at the numbers I gave him to get the tankless in and said there is no way the savings would recoup, especially if he has to periodically "babysit" the unit so he can take a hot shower without paying hired hands quarterly to clean an ongoing issue.

He heads to Sears (by my recommendation) and in calling them before he gets there, no 75 gallon gas heaters in stock. (we find out when I arrive that due to the location of this water heater, nothing is going in other than a 50 and the 50 ended up being a ton of work after all. He brought the 75 over to the house when I arrived, had the wife take it back and get a 50 gallon 12 year GE. (Flue venting killed the idea of "trying" to make the 75 go in, 4" minimum and they had 3 going to a B-vent chase.

Customer wanting a pan installed under this heater made everything on top the heater change, dramatically. I charged almost $600 last night to get this in, including materials which included a PRV and copper pipe/fittings. He provided the 3/4 ball valve and 3/4" DUF's/aluminum pan and bricks.

The expansion tank you see in the pictures below is defective. I brought a ST-12 upon the assumption a 75 gal heater was going in. He didn't want to pay the cost for that larger tank upon the discovery his tank was bad and only two years old so he opted to take care of the EXP tank himself.

After I wrote the bill, I always give my first time customers a discount. The guy was so glad to have the luxury of waking up sunday morning (probably as late as I did LOL!) knowing he has hot water for under a $1000.

Tankless cannot touch those numbers. Neither the install nor the base price of this particular customer's needs, excluding the vent kit.

I told the customer since I'm working for his next door neighbor across the lake next week, I'll come over and replace that expansion tank ($24) @ no charge along with I want to strap that expansion tank to the ceiling and get some metal hanger iron on that 3" flue as well.

Now the customer doesn't even have to worry about spending another $50 plus the time to replace the tank; he's getting it for free.

The majority of people treat plumbing as PUT IT IN AND FORGET IT, WORRY ABOUT IT WHEN IT BREAKS. There might be cabana boys running around that have the time and knowledge to tinker with their plumbing but the majority of people follow the out of site out of mind theory.

GoTankless,

Since your username is solely created to promote,

I'm going to invest a little of my time and call around to say, 20 mfgs. of tankless heaters and get the prices of those heat exchangers you stated are on average, $138. Then I'm going to find out what it costs to have "trained hands" replace that exchanger in retrospect to a plumber replacing a water heater like I did last night.

My response time was 45 minutes. If I was going last to replace a heat exchanger on that unit, I wouldn't of been able to, would have to wait till monday, the customer would be conflicted with what is the better choice; buy a whole new tankless or pay to have parts replaced on the aging unit.

What's good about these types of threads?

Promoters of tankless water heaters don't handle constructive criticism of their product very well. In retort, they start pulling these inflated numbers out of the air and try to diminish factual evidence such as I and others provide on a continual basis that pretty much should do one thing to the many readers of these threads:

Take all the information you read, examine it greatly, find out who in your area has the capability and availability of parts and expertise before you dare stick your neck out to try these new devices.

GoTankless "tried" to blame the plumber on my one customers situation on New Year's Day on being a nit-wit and plumbers in his area install heat trap nipples upside down.

The reality of my customer's situation was he had a product no one knows how to work on, no one can fix it and he has to rely on 1-800 numbers to fix it, along with a slew of parts to figure out what will fix it by the average consumer with no background knowledge of "how-to".

Market hype folks. Until they make a better product with parts availability and trained hands to work on them with the elimination of efficiency loss due to calcium buildup,

I cannot mislead my customer base to invest in something that leaves them helpless when the times come when **** goes wrong. It's predictable, products fail and my ability to solve my customer's hot water issue last night laid solely on the product I was working with.




word


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...R/12807001.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...R/12807002.jpg

[kordts]

Everybody could drive a piece of crap Yugo, live in a trailer or otherwise not spend money on what we think is important. Some people want tankless heaters. It's a proven technology. It is a growing market. I don't push it, I talk most people out of it. But the applications where it will work, I sell them and install them. Like it or not, being a plumber requires some salesmanship. Talking someone out of a tankless is salesmanship. I want to be the guy in my area that is known as the tankless guy. With that comes a need to be honest and tell people when thay aren't suited for them. I think gotankless is that kind of guy. He isn't saying that tankless is right in every application. One of things plumbers need to do is realize that you don't have to sell a product because it is cheaper, you sell the best because it's better, sometimes it is less expensive, but you sell it because it's the best, plus the bigger the price tag, the higher the markup. The customer is happy because they have the best, whether it's toilet, faucet, or sillcock, and we are happy because it was profitable. Everybody wins.

[master plumber mark]

if a customer wants to shoot themselves in the
foot, .......well thats ok with me too.....

I just dont want ot be the guy loading the gun....

or the plumber
he is pi//ed off at when it does not live up to the hype...

or the guy two years from now he calls crying about
a broken down $3500 unit on Sunday afternoon.....


Rugged did the 100% right thing ,
time and situation permitting
he still was better off without the tankless unit...


I dont see a problem with selling the tankless heaters to
customers as long as they are made completely aware
of the pros and cons involved in owning one ......

make them sign a waiver stateing
......dont come crying to me if it fails to live up to your expectations.

most stats on the tankless look like smoke
and mirrors to me..........if any legit stats exist at all .....

but the countless complaints are out there for all the world to see

I feel the tests done by Bradford white posted on my web site
white speak for themselves.......

[kordts]

Why does a customer have to sign a waiver for a tankless? Hell, beer commercials imply that drinking their swill will cause hotties to throw themselves at you, but breweries don't make you sign a waiver to drink their product. I install a lot of water heaters but more and more customers ask about tankless, and I am a fool not to take advantage of "buzz" being generated that didn't cost me a penny.

[Phil H2]

I don't read all of the threads here. But, I don't recall any homeowners asking questions about repairing their tankless heater. I know tankless aren't common. But haven't heard much bad about them except from plumbers that don't like them. But, it is very possible that I missed the homeowners problems.

My first experiance with tankless was 15-20 years ago and it left a bad taste. I worked at a place with 6 big Palomas used for shower buildings. There was probably a problem with the overall plumbing design. The output temperature varied when the water demand changed all of the sudden (The 3 separate systems also had tempering valves that did not help and Chicago pushbutton valves on the showers with very low flow heads). Wildly varying temperature was a problems from day one. With a fairly stable flow, they worked wonderfully. After about a year, one thermocouple went bad and the closest parts to So. Calif. were in WA or OR. The threads on the thermocouple were metric. They were installed in a place with terrible water quality (harder than rocks and full of minerals). But that never seemed to bother them. They were replaced with tanks a year or two after being installed because the problem with temperature fluctuation could not be solved.

On the other hand, I had a friend that was very happy with his little Paloma tankless. He lived in a cabin on the Big Island of Hawaii. He had no indoor plumbing. Rain water from his roof was collected in a cistern. The shower was outside and used the Paloma for heat. I visited him a couple times and it worked great. These are my only personal experiences with tankless. This all happened 15-20 years ago. I still like the simple and plain design of a good-old tank water heater with a standing pilot.

[GoTanklessToday]

B]I would love to install 200 a month...of anything..[/B]

but I know $3000 would not fly well here......

You will be surprised how well they sell when you actually try.



With what or how do you do to justify the extra costs
to the customer..???

There is no need to justify the price, people aren't buying them for justification of price. They want unlimited hot water.



I am sure you must have some sort of pay back
calculations or estimates??

The pay back is in the form of long life, along with a 30-50 % savings (conservatively) in hot water costs.



or are people just flocking to you because it is the
newest fad and they have seen it all on the internet??

There you go again... PEOPLE... these are not new heaters, nor is this a fad. Tankless heaters have been used in other countries around the world for 50+ years.



They see the promise of "unlimited hot water"
and just take a blind leap of faith???

Our customers are well read, and want high tech equipment. Plus, it doesnt hurt that I spend 12000.00 a month on advertising...



So do they even think "why do I need unlimited hot water"
how long do i really need to be in the shower for???

It's not just about taking long showers. What if they have that 100+ gallon soaking tub? Lots of houses here do. Before tankless, they are using those tubs for storage bins. What if they have 3 teenagers who are showering several times a day? Simple thing is that finally now they have options that will allow them to use that tub, and not worry about who's turn it is in the shower.


Though I dont think that the tankless can provide unlimited hot
water to more than one fixture at a time....

It depends on which model they install. Most will. In our climate, we get between 4 - 4.5 GPM at 120 degrees. That is enough to run two showers at the same time. That doesn't mean they will actually get to do that. It just means that is what the heater will do. Pipe size, condition, layout, etc determines the actual output to the homeowner.



it just grabs them I suppose...and wont let go......

and then they write that big check

Imagine that. A plumbing contractor wanting their customer to write a big check. I don't know about where you all are from, but here, its VERY expensive to be in business. We need all the big checks we can get.

[GoTanklessToday]

The following events took place between 8:24 pm and 2:04 am


just left HD because they didn't have a tankless water heater to buy. HD sells Poloma sp? and they were out.

Classic. OUT OF STOCK. I wonder why? I love this one.



I start talking to him, asked him how close the main trunk line of the gas service is. He told me it is on the opposite side of the furnace next to the water heater. I told him the absolute minimum need for his application starts at 3/4" and goes up. Given his demand with 7 adults will be safe to say 1" is more realistic, don't you think?

Wow, you really had me there for a minute.. I was rooting for you. All your questions were right on... I thought you were gonna sell a tankless. As for number of people, it really doesnt matter. The BTU's of the heater and the distance from the meter determine what the pipe size will be. Dang it... you were really on target there for a minute...


Mind you, this is an emergency call; this guy ONLY cares about having hot water come monday morning @ 6am. The sun could fall from the sky, it doesn't matter to him. He's has to worry about showers come monday morning before they go to work. I found out the unit this customer wanted to buy that was a Poloma was $200 with a 4-7.5 gpm flow rating.

Under the circumstances you describe here, I would have sold him a tank heater too, but only after giving him the options for going tankless. But if he truly said he only cares about getting hot water back by morning, then i'd have done the same thing you did. I would have been done and gone by 11pm though if I got there at 9:15.



I explained to the customer that in our area that calcium buildup/liming of the heat exchanger requires cabana boy to clean it periodically to maintain it's original efficiency to maintain that GPM flow it was so gloriously remarked about to convince the masses that it will serve your needs.

Verbatim from the customer, "Well it sounds like you are trying to talk me out of the tankless." I replied, "No, I'm telling you the reality of these units and what you have to value what your personal time is worth to keep maintaining this unit." "You have substantial costs to install it, major rework of the gas line along with substantial costs involved in running the new flue for the tankless." "The unit you are purchasing has to be ran in stainless steel due to the high temperature of the burned gases which is in excess of 500 degrees." "Galvanised piping cannot be used due to the high temperature, the creation of toxic fumes and condensation which is detrimental to the tankless unit." "In other words there is no way you are going to afford me even during regular scheduled hours along with the cost of a tankless unit along with the vent kit and all the ceilings I have to tear down to install this unit."


He basically scoffed at the numbers I gave him to get the tankless in and said there is no way the savings would recoup, especially if he has to periodically "babysit" the unit so he can take a hot shower without paying hired hands quarterly to clean an ongoing issue.

That customer was not a good prospect for tankless, plus there are many false statements in your pitch to him. Stainless venting is not for heat. Its for cooler exhaust, and the byproduct there of.. Condensation. Plus, it has to be sealed vent pipe because of the cat 3 rating. Tankless heaters have blowers to evacuate the exhaust. (most anyway). Hard water? That's the one thing I can't comment on because I know nothing of that. I will do some research for you as well.



He heads to Sears (by my recommendation)

My only question is WHY on earth would you send this guy to a retailer to get their heater? Is your company a "for profit" outfit? Get a warehouse and stock up man...



After I wrote the bill, I always give my first time customers a discount. The guy was so glad to have the luxury of waking up sunday morning (probably as late as I did LOL!) knowing he has hot water for under a $1000.

He wasn't a good tankless prospect. Although we "go tankless today" all the time, the majority require a days notice to get done. The average tankless conversion is taking our crews about 6 man hours. One thing we do though, is keep a stock of "loaner" heaters on hand. When we run into the situation like you are describing here, we replace the leaker with one of our loaners to use until we can get back to do the conversion.



Tankless cannot touch those numbers. Neither the install nor the base price of this particular customer's needs, excluding the vent kit.

Absolutely, you are right on the cost part. Tankless is 3 times the money. It's not always about cost.



The majority of people treat plumbing as PUT IT IN AND FORGET IT, WORRY ABOUT IT WHEN IT BREAKS. There might be cabana boys running around that have the time and knowledge to tinker with their plumbing but the majority of people follow the out of site out of mind theory.

You are right. That is why for now, you will be selling way more tanks than tankless heaters. No doubt about it.


GoTankless,

Since your username is solely created to promote,

I'm going to invest a little of my time and call around to say, 20 mfgs. of tankless heaters and get the prices of those heat exchangers you stated are on average, $138. Then I'm going to find out what it costs to have "trained hands" replace that exchanger in retrospect to a plumber replacing a water heater like I did last night.

When you do spend some time, you will find that there aren't 20 manufacturers to call. The big 5 are: Noritz, Rinnai, Paloma (also sold as Rheem. Did you know that Paloma OWNS Rheem?), Takagi, Bosch. We're only talking about GAS fired tankless heaters here. As for cost, if we aren't on a flat rate job, our hourly rate is 100/hr.



My response time was 45 minutes. If I was going last to replace a heat exchanger on that unit, I wouldn't of been able to, would have to wait till monday, the customer would be conflicted with what is the better choice; buy a whole new tankless or pay to have parts replaced on the aging unit.

I wouldn't be able to change a heat exchanger at 9:15pm either. We don't stock them because the odds of any going bad for the next 10 years is nil. Sometimes you have to remind your customer that it won't be the end of the world if they go without hot water for a day (or put the loaner in...). I can have any part for any brand in 24 hours or less.



Promoters of tankless water heaters don't handle constructive criticism of their product very well.

Actually, I sell a fraction of tankless compared to tank style heaters. Not everyone can afford them, and there are some people who can't have them. Heck, there are even those who don't want them. I sell whatever my customer wants. I am able to do so because I've taken the time to learn about the equipment.


Take all the information you read, examine it greatly, find out who in your area has the capability and availability of parts and expertise before you dare stick your neck out to try these new devices.

They are not new, (50+ year old technology). But I do agree with the rest of this statement. Take your own advice and learn about them. Get factory training and be the tankless guy in your area. Or not... its your call. Someone will be stepping up though. May as well be you...



GoTankless "tried" to blame the plumber on my one customers situation on New Year's Day on being a nit-wit and plumbers in his area install heat trap nipples upside down.

Get your facts straight... I said the plumber here in my area was a nit wit. A guy who sells himself as a long time "master" plumber did that. My point (again) was to point out that even a simple old tank heater can be installed improperly, resulting in a no hot situation for several days.



The reality of my customer's situation was he had a product no one knows how to work on, no one can fix it and he has to rely on 1-800 numbers to fix it, along with a slew of parts to figure out what will fix it by the average consumer with no background knowledge of "how-to".

The reality is (most likely) that the plumber installed it incorrectly. Again.. it seems so simple to me... (this is where I knock on your forehead and say "McFly...") if no one is stepping up as the tankless guy in your area, then why not you? That opportunity is a short lived one, I can assure you. You are sitting squarely where we were in 2003.