Where Should the Whole House Filter Go?

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Speedbump

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I think you will find the rust is on the outside of the galvanized. If not, we must be buying different brands of pipe. About the only place I see rust on galvanized pipe is where a pipe wrench has chewed through the galvanize coating or where the pipe was rubbing something. I also see holes in a lot of galvanized pipe. This is not rust, it's electrolysis.

bob...
 

Speedbump

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I've seen it that way too, but it was rust that was deposited there not rust from the pipe itself. Kinda like the plumbing in an old house I lived in years ago.

The reason I like galvanized so much is we can stack 42 feet of it up through our stacking hoop on the pump hoist. This way it never touches the ground (you know what dogs do on that ground) and it makes for a lot faster swap out on a pump replacement. I also like it because if a pump gets stuck in the well for any number of reasons, I can usually get it out. With PVC or Poly, forget it.

bob...
 
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vaplumber

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ddmoit said:
Thanks, vaplumber.

I don't know what I'm going to do yet, but I will definitely not be putting a filter between the pump and the pressure tank based on the feedback from this board.

I'm just about convinced that I have rusting galvanized pipes. I'm not sure what to do about it. For under $1,500, I can hook up to city water and abandon the well. I kind of like being "off the grid" so to speak though. I'd prefer to keep this well going if I can. I believe the water quality and quantity are good. My means of getting it is the problem.

I wouldnt abandon the well for that reason. Chances are if the inground pipe is galvanized you also have galvanized in the house and you probably will still have the problem if it is caused by the pipe. You could install water treatment for less to close to this amount, clean up your water and not have a monthly water bill. IF you abandon the well and are not happy your chances of the county or city allowing you to restore the well may be slim to none. Play with the well a little if you can afford it, and if you aint happy then abandon the well. If you have galvanize plumbing that is the cause of your trouble then youll probably need the water treatment anyway.
 
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vaplumber

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speedbump said:
The reason I like galvanized so much is we can stack 42 feet of it up through our stacking hoop on the pump hoist. This way it never touches the ground (you know what dogs do on that ground) and it makes for a lot faster swap out on a pump replacement. I also like it because if a pump gets stuck in the well for any number of reasons, I can usually get it out. With PVC or Poly, forget it.

bob...
I do agree with this.
 

Leejosepho

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Gary Slusser said:
The best naked eyes can not see particles less than 50-45 microns and most people use 5 and less micron cartridges! So why filter out such fine particles that no one can see?

I hear you there, Gary, yet there is definitely a visible difference now that we are using filters finer than 20 micron. It used to be that when I filled a glass with water and held it to the light I could see many somethings swirling around, but now I do not. Maybe there is some other explanation for that?

Gary Slusser said:
Then they plug up much easier and cause pressure losses that kill softener resin.

We have gauges on each side of each filter to watch for that, but so far our filters end up being changed when our water begins tasting a little sour even though there is no noticable pressure drop across either filter.

Gary Slusser said:
Also, soluble iron, manganese etc. (like sugar in iced tea - a soluble), go right through them to continue to cause staining and other problems.

Yes, I understand, but now whatever staining we might have is no longer visible in our fixtures between routine weekly-or-so cleanings.

Gary Slusser said:
You should get a water analysis and then a correctly sized softener that can handle your amount of iron and manganese if any, or a separate iron filter (both should use a Clack WS-1 control valve). I don't like manganese greensand (sorry Bob) due to the need for potassium permanganate. I use a specially built softener on up to 5 ppm of iron and have been for the past 20 years with great success.

Until my wife and I might be able to afford that, our only other option seems to be averaging around a dollar a month for filters!
 

ddmoit

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Vaplumber,

To be clear, the rest of the house is entirely copper starting at the pressure tank outlet. Between the pressure tank and the pump I have about 4 feet of some kind of black plastic that was put there recently by the guy who replaced my pressure tank. All my galvanized is on the other side of the pump.
 

Gary Slusser

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Good water has no taste, it's the things in water that give it a good or bad taste..

Sediment cartridges at a buck/month... I buy at deeply discounted wholesale prices and I can't buy a 20 mic let alone 5 mic or lower for a buck even at 40/case prices. Staining is evidence of a soluble like iron or tannin in the water. Sediment cartridges do not remove or reduce them. And I haveto disagre with Bob on galvanized not rusting internally. I've seen it with holes in it and a very thin wall in spots (from bacteria probably). In my experience with it, which is limited, it usually causes water quality problems like adding iron to the water and taste/odor problems.
 

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I think I'll take some pictures next time I see it...but I've pulled pipes out of walls with chunks of black and brown rust on the inside of the pipes which had them totally clogged and unusable...and the outside was just old and dusty looking with no rust. I've pulled them out of the ground with pitted rust on the outside and the same condition on the inside as I just described. When the get pin holes in them then because of the venturi effect of moving water they pull in the muddy water surrounding the pipe and cause a strange tasting water.... maybe speedbump hasn't seen this...but then maybe we just have different pipes in Alabama?????? I do know that the long term effect of water moving over metal is that the water will eat it away one molecule at a time....and when minerals are mixed with it then it happens faster.
 

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Gary Slusser said:
Good water has no taste, it's the things in water that give it a good or bad taste..

Sure, and while I do not know what is actually going on to cause this, our water tastes just fine unless we go too long between filter changes when it can get pretty rank even though the filters still have plenty of flow. That has only happened once, though, and that was with a high-dollar sediment filter I had been told could last up to a year before restricting flow. It did just fine in that category, but somehow it had become quite sour.

Gary Slusser said:
Sediment cartridges at a buck/month... I buy at deeply discounted wholesale prices and I can't buy a 20 mic let alone 5 mic or lower for a buck even at 40/case prices.

I look around for deals, and I got our last batch of (10) 5-micron polys and (25) .5-micron yarn for a grand total of $2.00 each, including shipping, knowing we can go at least 3 months before changing either ... and just now remembering we do have two 10-inchers together in one 20" housing, yes, I guess that could kick me up to about a buck and a quarter per month, eh?!

Gary Slusser said:
Staining is evidence of a soluble like iron or tannin in the water. Sediment cartridges do not remove or reduce them.

Okay, if you say so, but my wife is sure happy to not have to scrub like she used to!

If I could afford to do so, I would buy some stuff from you in a heartbeat, Gary. But at least for now, I can only do the best I can do while spending just as little as possible.
 

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Randyj said:
... chunks of black ...

I had been hoping our filters might keep that hard black layer from building up inside the connector for our second pressure tank (after the filters), but no, they did not help a bit there. I have about a foot of clear hose making that connection, and now that hose looks like it has been painted inside. Our first pressure tank (still ahead of the filters) had been in service for a little over 12 years before I discovered its connection had been nearly closed off by that hard black stuff. Whatever causes that, I know we will likely need something like Gary is talking about if we are to ever be rid of that problem.
 
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Rancher

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Gary Slusser said:
Good water has no taste, it's the things in water that give it a good or bad taste..
Perhaps you should say pure water, or distilled water has no taste, the bottled water distributors add "stuff" to filltered/distilled water to make it taste like water. I guess in all the places I've lived in Ariz, that ground water is "good water" :)

Rancher
 
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Well except for that Alkali flat just to the NorthEast of me... perhaps the water isn't so good there.

Rancher
 

Randyj

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Leejo.. Have you taken your water in for analysis lately? There are lots of microorganisms in the earth that get into plumbing and cause this growth. If you check out the walls of an old septic tank they are also black. Bacteria growing on the walls of things can/do break them down. There is a class of bacteria which utilize iron as well as some which utilize sulfur...those bacteria definitely can give a little twang to stored water.
 

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I guess I have tried to oversimplify the idea of galvanized pipe not rusting. Of coarse it will rust if you take off the galvanizing. And galvanized pipe in the ground will rust and get pinholes. I think you will find most galvanized pipe will rust due to electrolysis as oppossed to mineral content in the water. The minerals tend to protect the pipe by building up in layers. This is of course detrimental to your water flow and pressure. That's why I recommend plastic pipe for distribution lines. I still like galvanized in the well for the sake of being able to get a stuck pump out after many years of service.

bob...
 

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Randyj said:
Leejo.. Have you taken your water in for analysis lately?

No, but I did spend $15.00 (plus shipping) for an at-home "test kit"! According to those several results, we have no nitrites/nitrates or anything else bad, our softener is doing its job, and we have a Ph of around 8.5 ... but I have no idea what that means.

Randyj said:
There are lots of microorganisms in the earth that get into plumbing and cause this growth ... There is a class of bacteria which utilize iron as well as some which utilize sulfur...those bacteria definitely can give a little twang to stored water.

Yes, I have at least heard about the iron-related bacteria. When we first got this place a couple of years ago, it had been empty for a year and the one filter we had at that time was quite black. Since then, however, the only black I have seen is the hard scale inside the tank connector, and we have only had that "twang" a couple of times, once badly, yet without any "black" either on the filters or past them.

At the moment, I am planning to remove the anode from the water heater to see what effect that might have in relation to our slight come-and-go or varying sulfur odor that is occasionally more in the hot water than in the cold.
 

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Maybe you should have a biological assay done on your water just to see what you're drinking. pH is a mathematical expression of the concentration of hydrogen or hydronium ions. A pH of 1 is very acidic and a pH of 14 is the other end of the spectrum which is basic or alkaline. If you understand logarithms ... it is the negative log of the concentration of H+ ions... I have a b.s. in microbiology and had to eat lots and lots of chemistry. A pH of 7.0 is "neutral". Ph 8.5 is quite alkaline. I don't have a clue which is best but "things" act/react differently according to the pH when they are in solution. If you've got "stuff" growing on plastic then you can pretty well assume it's not merely being deposited by "electrolysis" although that might be possible.
 
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Rancher

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leejosepho said:
No, but I did spend $15.00 (plus shipping) for an at-home "test kit"! According to those several results, we have no nitrites/nitrates or anything else bad, our softener is doing its job, and we have a Ph of around 8.5 ... but I have no idea what that means.
I bought and used one of those test kits, I assume you mean the one reported on in that Consumers magazine the Reports one, it does a very poor job at measuring PH, I compared my results with the pool PH tester and it was off about 1.5 on the Alkaline side... so your water could be neutral.

Rancher
 

Gary Slusser

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leejosepho said:
No, but I did spend $15.00 (plus shipping) for an at-home "test kit"! According to those several results, we have no nitrites/nitrates or anything else bad, our softener is doing its job, and we have a Ph of around 8.5 ... but I have no idea what that means.

Yes, I have at least heard about the iron-related bacteria. When we first got this place a couple of years ago, it had been empty for a year and the one filter we had at that time was quite black. Since then, however, the only black I have seen is the hard scale inside the tank connector, and we have only had that "twang" a couple of times, once badly, yet without any "black" either on the filters or past them.

At the moment, I am planning to remove the anode from the water heater to see what effect that might have in relation to our slight come-and-go or varying sulfur odor that is occasionally more in the hot water than in the cold.

A hot water only odor problem is caused by a reducing bacteria; either sulfate, iron or manganese reacting with the the anode rod. Removing the rod voids warranties. You can try using a different kind of rod but that doesn't always solve the problem. The only guaranteed solultion is to kill the bacteria.

UV lights can not be used without causing another problem so you must use chlorine or ozone. Hydrogen peroxide usually doesn't work well either.

The EPA acceptable range of pH is 6.5 to 8.5. It used to be 6.9 to 8.5. The 8.5 is alkaline/caustic and anything less than 7.0 is acidic.
 

Leejosepho

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Rancher said:
I bought and used one of those test kits, I assume you mean the one reported on in that Consumers magazine the Reports one, it does a very poor job at measuring PH, I compared my results with the pool PH tester and it was off about 1.5 on the Alkaline side... so your water could be neutral.

I do not know whether that is the same kit, but it is easy for me to imagine my results could be questionable even if only because I had to match shades of colors on various charts. Also, I forgot to mention one test indicating we have the maximum acceptable ppm for chloride. There is someone nearby I can call about some better testing, and I just might do that in the spring after we have had a couple of nice rains.

Gary Slusser said:
A hot water only odor problem is caused by a reducing bacteria; either sulfate, iron or manganese reacting with the the anode rod.

Someone somewhere, maybe the well man, had once told me our black scale could be from manganese.

Gary Slusser said:
Removing the rod voids warranties. You can try using a different kind of rod but that doesn't always solve the problem. The only guaranteed solultion is to kill the bacteria.

I believe our water heater is old enough to be past warranty, but yes, that would be something to consider. I went looking for a different rod a few days ago, but the place I went did not have any at all and the man I talked with there told me he just pulls rods and throws them away. At the moment, I am planning to pull ours and see what difference that might make as to our sulfur odor, but overall, I am inclined to have at least some kind of rod in there.
 
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