Sump Pump Starts and Stops Constantly

Hi,

I recently had a plumber install a new Zoeller submersible sump pump and a battery backup pump. The Zoeller pump is an automatic unit which has a self contained float switch and the "on/off" pumping range cannot be adjusted. Because I live in an area with a high water table, the pump is cycling every 30 seconds. The sump pit fills with water and after it reaches around 4 inches the pump kicks in. and the cycle starts all over again.

If I unplug the main pump, the water will level off right after it reaches the height of the inlet pipe into the pit. The pit is a little more than a third of the way full at this point. The backup float switch is set about an inch above the inlet and yesterday it took more than an hour for the water level to reach this point to switch on the backup pump.

The FAQ on Zoeller's web site mentions that "an automatic unit can be converted to operate with an external pump switch which will expand it's pumping range and decrease the amount of short cycling", but it doesn't explain how this is done.

Can anyone give me any advice on this? Do I need to replace this new pump for a pump with a manual float switch, or is the external pump switch a viable option?

Thanks,

Ed

ers26 said:

If I unplug the main pump, the water will level off right after it reaches the height of the inlet pipe into the pit. The pit is a little more than a third of the way full at this point.

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The reason it levels off is because you are now using the inlet to the sump as an expanded sump, this is only ok if you are not damaging something that the pipe is draining. There are lots of suppliers of external liquid level controls, try Speedbumps site for one.

Rancher

Sounds to me like the primary switch for that pump should be where the back up switch is now,then the back up up switch above that.The whole reason for that system is to keep the groundwater from flooding your basement but if the water levels off at a safe spot in the pit i would set everything up according to that.

SAM

Sammy, I was going to suggest he put his sump pump on a cinder block to raise the float switch level, but I'm gun shy of what you would have said, like since you know I'm from AZ, that you know I've never even seen a sump... Ok I do use a sump pump in the creek, but out here we call them pool cover pumps.

Rancher

Rancher,
i'm realy not too savvy on sump pump systems but it sounds to me like maybe that type of sump pump either wasn't installed right or wrong type of pump for the application. The cynder block thing would get the switch higher and would work but i'm not too sure what his other options are.I know the sump systeme that i usualy come across have a float that sits on the bottom of a rod then an arm that comes off the rod and activates the switch.

Maybe someone else could elaborate on this.

SAM

I guess what he realy should do is get the guy back thet installed it and set it up right. I know if i paid someone to install a sump system i would want it to work right.

SAM

sammyhydro11 said:

I guess what he realy should do is get the guy back thet installed it and set it up right. I know if i paid someone to install a sump system i would want it to work right.

SAM

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I trusted the plumber who did the work for me because I had him do some previous plumbing work in my basement, and I was happy with the results. I am beginning to have doubts now about him. I think that maybe he has never worked on a sump system where the pit gets a lot of water??? I live in an area that has a high water table and my neighbors around me experience the same flow of water into their pits, especially when there has been a lot of moisture in the ground. Fortunately for them, they have their pumps set up correctly. Their pumps are running often, but no where near as often as mine. The plumber flat out told me there was nothing he could do about it and that I should contact the village I live in because I have a constant flow into my sump pit. I really don't know what to do next about him or my pump at this point.

I have tried contacting Zoeller pumps for some technical advice but I have yet to get a reply to my email. I also tried calling them twice today from work, but I was on hold both times for over 40 minutes but couldn't stay on the line any longer.

I am still trying to determine if an external pump switch is a viable option or if I need to get a different pump installed or if there are any other options I might have.

Ed

Had a similar problem a few years back. Ended up getting a "piggy-back" float switch. I adjusted the integrated switch on the pump as low as possible so the water level kept it closed all the time. The piggyback switch then takes over switching the power on and off. Here's a Zoeller link to give you an idea how it works:

http://www.zoeller.com/zcopump/zcopdfdocs/FM0478.pdf

TH
(Not a Pro)

Sump cycling too often

See my post about the Wayne Electronic Sump pump switch.

Actually we were closed on January the 2nd.

If you have an automatic pump you can use a "piggyback" switch to have a better control of where the pump turns on and turns off as mentioned in a previous post. What you will have to do is tie strap the float of the pump into the "on" position so that way the float and switch inside the cap of the pump is always "on". Then when the "piggyback" switch is raised up by the water level and the contacts are made, the pump will turn "on" and pump your water out like normal giving you more time between starts!

We would not recommend to use the Wayne Electronic switch with our pumps, due to the reason that the switch operates off of moisture that comes in contact with the wires, well with all of our applications we recommend a 3/16" vent hole drilled into the discharge pipe and when the pump is pumping there will be a spray coming out of the vent hole causing the Wayne switch to actually run the pump longer than what is necessary and could actually burn your pump's motor up.

While the switch is a nice idea, Zoeller tried that type of switch out many
years ago and decided not to go that rout.

If you have any other questions feel free to ask them here or even PM me.

Thanks,
ZP

Hole in sump pipe discharge makes no sense

I know Zoeller recommends a hole in the discharge pipe to somehow avoid "air-lock", but that seems like a rare event. Further, to slam the Wayne electronic sump switch because Zoeller recommends drilling a hole in one's discharge pipe which in turn might spray everywhere, including on high water or a sensor like the Wayne sump switch is a bad joke. Sorry if that comes off sarcastic, but I sense a lot of negative energy by Zoeller against a product that they should acknowledge and even embrace for certain purposes instead of slammimg.

The advice Zoeller gives to drill a hole in the discharge pipe is somewhat controversial. Zoeller should come up with another solution if they fear the deadly "air-lock." Zoeller has been around for years but drilling a hole in the discharge pipe was not always recommended by that company. I have NEVER had a sump pump "air-lock" in decades of home ownership and the thousands of sump pump cycles during that time. Also, I never heard of one one air-locking in any home I ever built for others or in any friend or relatives home. If a sump pump does somehow air-lock, any high water alarm (like the one on the Wayne electronic switch) would alert one to that condition. A back-up sump would provide further protection for this event, which appears much more rare than the far more common failure of mechanical float switches.

We (as builders here) have problems with the hole in the discharge pipe after having specified the little hole ourselves for a while. People complain that a good deal of water sprays out wildly from that hole during pumping (as Zoeller said) and then, after the pump turns off, a good deal of water is drained back into the pit from the back-flow valve down. That is exactly what the fellow who has a pump that cycles too often *does NOT need.* I think he would be FAR better off with no hole in his main pumps discharge pipe but with an electronic sump switch to maximize the water pumped out of his pit during each cycle. That, in turn, would minimize the amount of times the pump turns on and off and greatly enhance the reliability of the system (since the mechanical float switch would be bypassed).

Zoellerpump - correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that some pumps from Zoeller now had a built-in vent hole to prevent airlock from occuring. In particular the 50 series, like an M-53?

jackofalltradesman said:

I know Zoeller recommends a hole in the discharge pipe to somehow avoid "air-lock", but that seems like a rare event. Further, to slam the Wayne electronic sump switch on the grounds it might spray everywhere and disrupt the water detection of the Wayne sump switch and flood detector (and on no other grounds) is a bad joke. Sorry for coming off sarcastic, but I sense a lot of negative energy by Zoeller against a product that they should acknowledge and even embrace for certain purposes rather than slam.

Also, the advice to drill a hole in the discharge pipe is controversial. Zoeller should come up with another solution if they fear the deadly 'air-lock."

First of all, Zoeller has been around for years but drilling a hole in the discharge pipe was not always recommended by that company. I have NEVER had a sump pump "air-lock" in decades of home ownership and the thousands of sump pump cycles during that time. Also, I never heard of one one air-locking in any home I ever built for others or in any friend or relatives home.

Secondly, if a sump pump does somehow air-lock, any high water alarm (like the one on the Wayne electronic switch) would alert to that condition. A back-up sump would provide further protection for this event, which appears much more rare than the far more common failure of mechanical float switches.

We (as builders here) have problems with the hole in the discharge pipe after having specified the little hole ourselves for a while. People complain that a good deal of water sprays out wildly from that hole during pumping (as Zoeller said) and then, after the pump turns off, a good deal of water is drained back into the pit from the back-flow valve down. That is exactly what the fellow who has a pump that cycles too often *does NOT need.* I think he would be FAR better off with no hole in his main pumps discharge pipe but with an electronic sump switch to maximize the water pumped out of his pit during each cycle. That, in turn, would minimize the amount of times the pump turns on and off and greatly enhance the reliability of the system (since the mechanical float switch would be bypassed).

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I don't recall ever "slamming" the Wayne switch, and as a matter of fact I actually said that it is a nice idea, and that Zoeller looked into something very similar a long time ago and decided not to go that rout! I just recommended to not use it with our pumps due to the fact of the weep hole spraying water! While it is true that air lock is rare, it does happen, and that is the reason we recommend to drill the weep hole.

Carmel Corn,

Yes some of our models actually do have a weep hole built into the base of the pump,and that hole does have a chance of debris clogging it up because it sits in the water, but in all of our installation instructions, Zoeller still recommends to drill the 3/16" hole in the discharge pipe just as a precaution.

jackofalltradesman said:

I know Zoeller recommends a hole in the discharge pipe to somehow avoid "air-lock", but that seems like a rare event. Further, to slam the Wayne electronic sump switch on the grounds it might spray everywhere and disrupt the water detection of the Wayne sump switch and flood detector (and on no other grounds) is a bad joke. Sorry for coming off sarcastic, but I sense a lot of negative energy by Zoeller against a product that they should acknowledge and even embrace for certain purposes rather than slam.

Also, the advice to drill a hole in the discharge pipe is controversial. Zoeller should come up with another solution if they fear the deadly 'air-lock."

First of all, Zoeller has been around for years but drilling a hole in the discharge pipe was not always recommended by that company. I have NEVER had a sump pump "air-lock" in decades of home ownership and the thousands of sump pump cycles during that time. Also, I never heard of one one air-locking in any home I ever built for others or in any friend or relatives home.

Secondly, if a sump pump does somehow air-lock, any high water alarm (like the one on the Wayne electronic switch) would alert to that condition. A back-up sump would provide further protection for this event, which appears much more rare than the far more common failure of mechanical float switches.

We (as builders here) have problems with the hole in the discharge pipe after having specified the little hole ourselves for a while. People complain that a good deal of water sprays out wildly from that hole during pumping (as Zoeller said) and then, after the pump turns off, a good deal of water is drained back into the pit from the back-flow valve down. That is exactly what the fellow who has a pump that cycles too often *does NOT need.* I think he would be FAR better off with no hole in his main pumps discharge pipe but with an electronic sump switch to maximize the water pumped out of his pit during each cycle. That, in turn, would minimize the amount of times the pump turns on and off and greatly enhance the reliability of the system (since the mechanical float switch would be bypassed).

Click to expand...

This is bad advice folks.

Pumps can draw-down and pull air into the pump and if there is no way to remove it before the next cycle,

you have what I run into commonly in my 3 state area;

a pump of any age, in good working condition,

humming in the pit with water well above the float level to engage operation.

I will not install any submersible pump without a hole to prevent air-lock, I've corrected numerous installations where property damage resulted as a lack of correct knowledge when installing submersible pumps.

My track record of sump pumps currently under my responsibility of proper workmanship has no "repeated" occurrences since the install of the hole in discharge pipe.

I'll take my track record, the track record of numerous plumbers across the nation AND the mfg. recommended instructions before

I ever take the knowledge of a builder. If you are such an "expert" of the product......you should also know that cast iron housings in water over time eventually crustate over that lower weep hole sometimes,

lowering the check valve closer to the pump will prevent that "wasted" water on the kickoff of pump.

Dirt debri is a normal thing in the pit around the base of that pump.

Having that hole higher up on the pipe (within 6" of discharge) is more of a guarantee that the hole does NOT get clogged by debri commonly found at the base of the pit.

But what do I know, I'm just a service plumber replacing sump pumps averaging 7 a month. Finding air-locked pumps quite often but not all of the time. Sometimes age/failed switch/debri is to blame.

Thanks for the clarification Zoellerpump.

I've not done this, but I've heard of others installing a 1.5" to 2.0" fernco adapter over the weep hole on the main stack. With the 2.0" end mounted downward (covering the weep hole), it functions like a cover to prevent the spray from going upward all over the place. Spray hits the inner side of the 2.0" section and then drips down. I personally would wonder how long the soft rubber sidewall of the adapter could hold up over time.

I'm not recommending this based on any firsthand experience, but if anybody is sold on the electronic sensor switch/alarm, then perhaps this might help prevent false triggers.

Bad advice from plumber

I am a builder and believe your advice is the wrong advice to someone who needs to maximize the amount of water pumped out at each cycle.

First, you say you get calls and see a pump constantly running, but then admit that it is probably a bad switch. That is what the electronic switch avoids and has nothing to do with air-lock.

Second, before you conclude that this is a bad product and bad advice and that you are a plumber and know everything, please study the switch and its capability again. The switch has a high water sensor/alarm and for those who fear a very rare "air-lock" condition happening when they are not home, a back-up sump pump is an easy answer. If you want to claim that an electronic sump switch mounted outside the pump on the AC outlet is less reliable than a mechanical float switch (the kind that has a fabled history of failure, getting stuck on the side of the sump pit, etc.) I would respectfully disagree and ask you for some basis for that opinion beyond your credentials as a plumber.

Forget the electronic switch, tell us about air-lock

As I read the reponses to the electronic switch, I am thinking now that maybe the product should be used even beyond the situation where people want to avoid frequent cycles.
I just don't see a downside but I do like the idea of not replacing a float switch ever and the increased range that it allows with a simple adjustment outside the water. I hope Terry Love takes a good look at these switches and, like pumpbiz, decides to sell them at his fine site.

Beyond the switch which I see will never be accepted by some plumbers (I simply recommended it for those with frequent cycling not all plumbers all the time), I still wonder about this "air-lock" as a seperate issue.
Historically, when did Zoeller first recommend that such a hole be drilled? Years and years before PVC pipe we had sumps with galvanized pipe and no holes, and for many years, homes have been built with sump pumps installed without the drilled hole. Allowing all that water to spray out and then drain back into the pit seems like it is genuinely counterproductive and a waste of electricity and pump life expectancy as well.

The weep hole has been in the installation instructions from Zoeller for 32 years, they have been preaching this for 36-39 years.

You know, we are not the only pump maufacturer that has this in their installation instructions, just about every submersible pump manufacturer uses this advice as well!

Like I said, I think the product is a nice idea, Zoeller just doesn't use anything like that!

Last reply for you

jackofalltradesman said:

I am a builder and believe your advice is the wrong advice to someone who needs to maximize the amount of water pumped out at each cycle.

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Out of all you wrote, this is all that I needed to read. Hilarious. You "think" that hole to prevent air-lock equates to loss of water during pump-on/pump-off cycles.


My consideration to reply to this thread was in regards to your misstatements regarding no protection of preventing air-lock.

IF you really, really think about "how" to maximize pump cycles with any pump manufactured, you set the pump in the pit to grab the largest water table of surface water. NOT your idea of a hole that's spraying a small amount of water out the side. That means setting either a float tether in proximity of where the pump float can travel the slowest upward between cycles.

Too often I see pumps installed where you can smell the switch burning in the pump because the pipes are up high in the pit and there's no reservoir of any amount to pull from.


Since you are a builder, I guess you know that during turbulent weather when the sump pit is rapidly filling and there are 2 or 3 drain tiles or footer drains dumping into this lowest point of the basement,

you should know that when water pours into the bottom of a pit, air can infiltrate into the mix. That air has to have a way to escape when the pump shuts off, waiting for the next motion of kicking on by the message from ANY switch sending power to engage.

If a pocket of air is in the area where the impeller is turning, IT WILL NOT HAVE ENOUGH FORCE TO OPEN THE CHECK VALVE.

That is why I go into peoples homes with the emergency "pump is broke and not pumping......need you to replace ASAP"

And how many times I've arrived, go to the basement, put my hand on the pipe and it is vibrating; pump is running and it has no way to engage a cycle.

OR

Pump is off, either reset the breaker back at the panel for the circuit and NOW the pump kicks on, but isn't pumping with a pit full of water. I can feel the pipe vibrating out of the pit like the pump is running.

Do you think I just make this **** up for websites like this?

When I pull a pump out of a pit that has considerable age.......9 times out of 10 it had everything to do with the installer drilling that hole.

Otherwise incoming water coming in hard and fast can cause irregular cycles and if just that "one" cycle does a draw-down with enough air in it with no way out before it kicks back on.............you "should" know the rest of the story.

With 3" of rain coming to my area this weekend I'll bet two jelly donuts that I'll be called to replace a sump pump.....it always happens.... << it will probably be a pump that is air-locked. Just like the pump I replaced on new year's 3 hours after the year chimed in.

Not even a year old Wayne pump....looked brand new. I've been using it in my aquatic garden since the first of the year. Nothing was wrong with it......it was air-locked in the pit. I could of put a hole in the pipe and left.


Any chance you are getting sued (highly possible) and somehow you are trying to pull factual knowledge to gather evidence? Just trying to figure out how a builder overwrites logic of mfg. of submersible pumps.

Sump starts and stops....

"If a pocket of air is in the area where the impeller is turning, IT WILL NOT HAVE ENOUGH FORCE TO OPEN THE CHECK VALVE."
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Sounds like a very weak pump, that is, a pump that is stopped by a pocket of air. In any event, there are ways to work around the issue of air-lock without resorting to drilling the hole. I mentioned one with the electronic sump switch/ high water alarm /DC back-up set-up that I have, and that is exactly the system I recommended for someone with frequent cycles. Another possible solution is a stronger pump that is not locked by an air bubble or possibly something like the built-in check valve on a strong sump like the Flotec Floodmate 7000, or the Hydromatic 1/2 h.p, the Wayne 3/4 h.p. or 1 h.p., etc. I wonder if more powerful pumps are immune to this I never use 1/3 h.p. pumps like tract builders, so maybe that is why I never see this issue in any homes.

You call the water backflow out of the pipe on each cycle a "small amount". The water that comes out of that hole is all of the water in the 1.5" pipe from the hole up to the check valve. It could be about a half of a gallon or so. For someone who has constant water coming into their drain tiles, starting off with an extra half gallon in the pit is the LAST thing they need.

The solution I came up with to deal with high water table/ frequent sump cycles is what I actually installed in my home. I have to say it works great.

I never heard of the requirement for the hole in the discharge pipe 30 years ago, but if Zoeller recommended it then, maybe they should consider a better solution to air-lock now. Just like the electronic switch in place of the old unreliable and problematic tethered float, there has to be a better way.

As a builder, I would like to see a pump company come up with a sump pump system that does not air-lock, that has no tethered or mechanical float, and maybe even an electronic monitoring capability where a homeowner can have a digital monitor upstairs that gives them status on the pumps operation, water level in the pit, how much water is being pumped per hour, back-up battery charging/ status, etc.