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Thread: Pipes Hammer when pump cuts out

  1. #31
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    The air mixes with the water and you wouldn't notice it.

    bob...

  2. #32

    Default jodan

    i suspected that. What about pressure drop in the bladder.

  3. #33
    Rancher
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    Quote Originally Posted by jodan
    i suspected that. What about pressure drop in the bladder.
    Did you measure the air pressure in the bladder when you emptyed the tank, it should have been around 25# if it was leaking like we suspect. If so that was probably the source of your water hammer. It should have been 2psi less than the cut in of your pressure switch... 40psi?

    Rancher

  4. #34

    Default jodan

    I have installed the new tank.
    It did not fix the hammer.
    I did check the old tank before i removed it. Confirmed bad.
    I did check the new tank pressure, i had to had air to get it to the 38#. I did all of that before install. I then ran the pump and filled the system. I then ran every faucet in the house and outside to purge the air. I have drained the system down a second time and and rechecked the tank bladder pressure. I did add about a 2 pounds which brought it back up to 38#. I did notice that the pressure guage does not drop all the way to zero, it stops at about 5#. But on the same note it does note build pressure either. I have opened every faucet again to purge air. I have also cycled the pump by running water. Pump starts at 40# and stops at 60#. But i still have hammer when the pump stops, same as before no change.
    Jon

  5. #35
    Previous member sammyhydro11's Avatar
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    Wow,
    i guess i would be a very angry customer if someone told me that replacing my tank would fix my water hammer propblem.......and it didn't. Come to new england fellas and every well system has a check valve right at the holding tank. I guess they should all be removed. And i wonder why they say you should have a check valve every 250'. It couldn't have anything to do with water hammer.....could it??

    Jodan,
    I know with putting a check valve at your tank would prevent you from using your hydrant but i was looking to prove a point. You need to pull that pump and replace that check valve like i first stated.

    SAM

  6. #36
    vaplumber
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    Quote Originally Posted by sammyhydro11
    Wow,
    i guess i would be a very angry customer if someone told me that replacing my tank would fix my water hammer propblem.......and it didn't. Come to new england fellas and every well system has a check valve right at the holding tank. I guess they should all be removed. And i wonder why they say you should have a check valve every 250'. It couldn't have anything to do with water hammer.....could it??

    Jodan,
    I know with putting a check valve at your tank would prevent you from using your hydrant but i was looking to prove a point. You need to pull that pump and replace that check valve like i first stated.

    SAM
    Sammy, I didnt mean to insult your intelligence here. I posted that based on my own experiences and what has worked for me. A check valve every 250 feet, some thing that I have been taught here in pump seminars is that the 250 foot rule applies to well depth and water level specs, and no it doesnt relate to hammer. It's simply to reduce the workload on the valve down in the well. There are several wells here that are over 800 feet, and my own experience shows me that they will work great for many years with only the check on the pump, and to forget the 250 foot depth rule. Some thing else that time has taught me is the diagnosis of a bladder tank. A very small leak in the bladder will allow the air pressure to drop without water showing up above the bladder. If the bladder becomes unstable, ie air pressure drops during drawdown, then rises during a pump cycle, when the pump kicks, you'll get a hammer. The pressure rising with pump off and valve closed tells me that air from the bladder is entering the water side of the system. The extra gallon of water that he drained after draining the tank, which shouldnt have been there after the bladder bottomed, tells me he has a bad tank. The water entered the air side through the small leak, and when he drained the tank, the air pressure forced the water back out of the bladder. I dont know about new england, but here any check valve installed has to be inside of the well casing and below the pitless adapter, and that even includes the foot valve for jet pumps. Yea a check valve at the tank would probably resolve the hammer caused by a slow leak, but thats like using a band aid for a gunshot wound. You might stop the bleeding, but wait until time lets the infection and lead poison set in. Once again, I didnt mean it as an insult. I have learned a great deal from this forum, and hopefuly I can learn a lot more, plus I hope to pass at least one thing along to some one else as well. Maybe youre right, and Im wrong, but if thats the case, I wont take it as an isult. Just some thing that a universal friend taught to me.
    Last edited by vaplumber; 12-29-2006 at 01:00 AM.

  7. #37
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    Having lived and worked in Michigan since they introduced licensing back in the 60's them moving to Florida 25 years ago, I see two different mentalities. In Michigan just like where VAPlumber lives, a check valve above ground is illegal. The reason is the vacuum that can be put on the suction/pressure line from home to well. Here in Florida, or at least in my county of Hillsborough, we have been regulated first by the health department, then the building department and now the plumbing department. The Chief Inspector (yes about as smart as Inspector Cluso) decided to take it upon himself to add a check valve in the pipe between the well and tank. He doesn't know why, he just thinks it is a good idea. I argued with him about it to no avail.

    I don't think any of us argue that a check valve won't stop the water from running back down the well, it's just that after the fact it's a big band aid masking a larger problem.

    bob...

  8. #38

    Default jodan

    It appears i have two issues. But i do know the tank was bad. Sam i know you want a check valve at the tank. But i still want my hydrant to work and it is to cold to run the second line to the hydrant, at least for me to want to do right now with frost. How difficult is the pulling of the pump? As stated before, i have cranes. Can it be accomplished that way? My quote to pull the pump was around $500. I'll battle that for a $20 valve.
    Jon

  9. #39

    Default jodan

    I found out the well information from a well drilling company off of his platte map. He quoted me the names dates and address, so it should be good info. As for teh man that put the well in, i have left another of many messages on his phone with no response yet.
    Jon

  10. #40
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Franklin Electric makes pump motors, not pumps. Some (wet end) pump manufacturers also suggest a check valve every 250'. In both cases they are trying to protect their product, not solve other issues and probably don't care much if their fix causes other problems.

    One check at or in the submersible pump is the best choice. That's for a number of reasons and all are good but the best is because a second check anywhere very successfully hides leaks.

    I say your problem may be caused by the length of pipe from the wall to the pressure tank and its anchoring/stabilization. If it moves and the movement causes a noise, you'll call it water hammer. If it moves or doesn't and you are hearing a bang/boom type noise, then you have real water hammer and I say the cause is a leaking check valve in or on the outlet of your submersible pump. It needs to be replaced.

    Pulling a 300' deep pump on PE pipe is difficult to impossible to do by hand. It is easier with a leaking check dumping the water in the pipe as you pull it though. On galvanized pipe you need a derrick truck or pump pulling machine. A crane/backhoe etc. ... how you change the grip on the drop pipe would be a problem, you need to hold the pipe and pump from falling down the well as you undo 10-20' sections of pipe. With PE you don't take it apart but you still have to hold it as you change the grip or rest.

    That $500 charge to pull your pump, it's well worth it; especially when you've never seen it done or done it before. You may not believe me until after attempting it on your own to "save" $300; or doing it on your own, but you'll more than likely say never again; especially if you do something wrong.

    Here's what I would do if I were there... Shut off the power to the pump. Shut off the water to the house PAST the pressure tank. Drain all water out of the pressure tank. Check the air pressure to be 39-38 psi. Turn on the power to the pump and watch the gauge and note the cut-out setting psi. Watch the gauge for the next 10 minutes looking for a loss of pressure. If the pressure holds, there is no leak from the tank to the check/pump. If you don't shut off the water to the house past the tank, you get to measure the weight of water above the tank...

    I would not install any type of hammer arrestor(or anything that can block up as a filter can) between a pump and pressure tank. The arrestors eventually fill with water due to the trapped air being absorbed into the water. Anything that can block up can cause major damage. That can take only a few weeks. You need to fix the cause of the problem rather than silence the symptom. Water hammer is very destructive, so not removing the cause allows pipe and pump etc. to be damaged and cause other problems later.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
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  11. #41
    Previous member sammyhydro11's Avatar
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    Well thank god for Republicans!

  12. #42

    Default jodan

    I just did a stupid stunt. I cut the power to the pump while it was on. When i turned it back on it didn't start back up. I have a franklin electric control box teh two reset buttons have been push. no luck. Any guesses
    Jon

  13. #43
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    Cutting the power to a pump while it is running would be no different than the pressure switch cutting it off.

    Do you have an volt/ohm meter?

    bob...

  14. #44

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    This is getting to be a pretty long thread...I am stupid about wells...but just thinking about a logical explanation...and have not read all of the posts... if the well is 398'..that means you got a heck of alot of pressure going toward the well when the pump shuts off...which tells me that a check valve is slamming shut and probablly need some kind of a heck of a muffler or shock absorber to lessen that hammer effect. May the force be with you....

  15. #45

    Default jodan

    Yes i have a meter
    Jon

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