Plumbing problem... need help

I need help.

My Fiance and i and our 8 month old son moved into a 1500sq ft mobile home a couple of months ago, we painted and put down vinyl tile and got new carpet installed.... everything seemed to be going just fine until a week ago when we sprung a small leak under the place. Started out as a pinhole leak but when a plumber tried to fix it, more pipes started leaking...

Our plumbing needs to be fixed but our insurance company won't cover it because it's considered an "Improper installation"

Basically we have galvanized steel pipes, and when they made this place in 1972 they used copper straps to put up them up. Two different metals touching over time create Electrolysis which is more or less a slow corrosion.... so yeah our insurance company isn't willing to cover any of the work even though we paid for the upgrade.

Two different plumbing companies have looked at the place and they both want between $4,500-6,000 to fix it. They want to "Modernize" the place and they say it's the only way.

Does anyone know if there is any way around the improper installation liability? Like, maybe the fact that it is all original and in 72 using copper and galvanized steel wasnt considered improper? I dunno.... there's no way i can afford $6,000 to fix the pipes!

We have to keep the water off right now and only turn it back on when we absolutely need it. If we leave it on for like 15 minutes it flows to the curb and all the way down the block.

Heeeeeeeeeelp.

haha

splattered said:

Our plumbing needs to be fixed but our insurance company won't cover it because it's considered an "Improper installation"

Basically we have galvanized steel pipes, and when they made this place in 1972 they used copper straps to put up them up. Two different metals touching over time create Electrolysis which is more or less a slow corrosion.... so yeah our insurance company isn't willing to cover any of the work even though we paid for the upgrade ...

Does anyone know if there is any way around the improper installation liability? Like, maybe the fact that it is all original and in 72 using copper and galvanized steel wasnt considered improper?

Click to expand...

I grew up in my father's trailer factory back in the late '60s, and I would today doubt there were any specific codes related to your problem in place for "manufactured homes" (then called "mobile homes") way back then. In other words, today's "improper installation" was yesterday's common practice -- plastic straps were not dependable and steel ones were known to rust, so copper straps were used -- leaving your insurance company in the position of now making a retroactive application of a modern standard.

Is the pipe failing at the supports? Ask the company to provide you with any standard, code or industry practice that states this was an improper installation in 1972. Ask the company to provide you with any report or study that concludes that copper pipe supports leads to the failure of galvanized steel pipe. Put the burden of proof on them.

Also confirm that the supports are copper. Many two hole pipe straps are copper plated steel. I find it hard to believe that the copper caused the damage. Old galvanized pipe frequently fails without any copper supports.

Electrolysis requires an electrolyte (eg. water). Also, a copper support is a very small cathode compared to the pipe anode. The companies claim is dubious.

straps

In the absence of water, there is no electrolysis. And in any case, unless the leak is at the strap, that reaction would not cause any leaks. You have a "bad" insurance company which likes to collect premiums but tries to avoid any coverage, even if they have to pull straws out of the air. But l cannot envision any mobile home installation that would cose more than $2,000.00, and closer to $1,500 using PEX which is what I am sure they are proposing. Unless that also includes patching the walls, and what that would cost depends on how the unit was built. Everything is exposed in the crawl area with just a few risers in the walls.

I'm just wondering where you are? Can you do the work yourself? Or does it have to be by a licensed plumber? If it comes down to it... I'd rip out the galvanized and put in CPVC then cover it with good pipe insulation (that's what I've got here in this dump). If its just under the house it's not too tough, if it's in the walls it can get messy. As for the insurance company... RIP OFF! It's in the same condition that it was in when you got the policy... If the policy is supposed to cover the plumbing read it thoroughly. Lawyers will also promise you the moon to get a fee. Of course, PEX, as hj mentioned, is a much better product if you have what you need to work with it.... I'd find a different plumber and a different insurance company.

Sorry its actually a home buyers warranty, but i have insurance as well... i havent consulted my insurance company yet, i doubt they'd be able to help... but maybe i should give them a call asap.

The HBW company told me over the phone this afternoon that things had to be up to code when we purchased the plan, yet they didnt deny adding us and i dont think an agent even came out and inspected anything... in the little handout it says "This contract provides coverage for unknown defects if the defect or malfunction would not have been detectable to the buyer, seller, or agent through visual inspection or simple mechanical test."

Probably not a loophole there though....?

"Limits of Liability

1.) Common areas yadda yadda... (not important)

2.) Repairs or replacements required as a result of missing parts , fire, flood, smoke, lightning, freeze, earthquake, theft, storms, accidents, mud, war, riots, vandalism, improper installation, acts of God, damage from pests, lack of capacity, or misuse are not covered by this contract."

Geez.

I like the idea of asking them to send me proof that this type of installation was considered improper in 1972.

This is going to be a huge headache.

I doubt you'll get very far with them unless you dot your I's and cross your tees.... the one reason to use a lawyer is that you don't cut your own throat and give them something to hang you with.... but I'd try to do all communications possible in writing. Definitely... keep a log of EVERYTHING related to this problem. Unrefutable, spotless records go a long way in court. You might be able to get a lawyer to look at it for free to $75. Either way... I'd get it fixed ... and even if you have to do it yourself, get a written quote from two or three plumbers just for ammunition should you need it.

The contract you signed states that any improper install is not covered so you will not be able to end around the wording BUT if you can post a pic of 1 or 2 of the leaks we may be able to help. Are the leaks where the straps are? Any leaks that you have occurring where there are no straps would have nothing to do with the straps. The electrolysis will only occur on the outside of the pipe where the 2 metals are contacting. Over time that could cause a leak at those points.

Keep after them. My only experiance with home warranties is with my own home and it wasn't a positive experiance. I don't know what standards covered mobile homes in 1972. Since 1974, HUD has been overseeing manufactured homes. I am not familiar with these codes. I think if the pipes are installed before shipping it follows HUD standards and if after shipping, local building codes. I quickly looked at the current HUD standards and did not see anything prohibitting galvanized pipe with copper hangers ( http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_06/24cfr3280_06.html plumbing starts around 3280.600). Here is a link to information on manufactured homes http://www.hud.gov/offices/hsg/sfh/mhs/mhshome.cfm .

Good luck. Keep after them. If you want to pursue this legally, I don't know your options. IIRC, the local bar associations where I live will provide referrals to lawyers who will give an initial consultation for $35.

Can you take this into arbitration?

Obtain 3 bids to repair the entire system. Submit a claim to the claim department of both insurance companies. Keep a positive attitude. Assume that they will pay. Do not be concerned with clamps, type of pipe, etc., If you paid the premium--assume that you are covered. Your claims must be denied in writing. If they are denied, then(in most states) you have the right to hire an attorney to represent you who will be paid for by the insurance company!!! This is called a cumus attorney. You will need to call around to find a cumus attorney who will handle the case. My guess is that because this is such a small amount( under $20,000) that the insurance company will just pay it. They might give you a check made out to you and your lender. You will need to follow the lenders rules because they want to be sure that the work is done properly to protect their collateral. Good luck.

Great advice everyone, thank you so much!

I actually called up a third plumbing company early this morning NOT associated with my home warranty company because they come highly recommended by everyone i asked. They will be coming out on Wednesday to give a quote to re-pipe the place. I told the woman in the service department EXACTLY what is going on and asked if she had any idea of what the average would be for this situation, and she put me on hold and came back and said the average for a 1500Sq ft mobile home in copper is $2,500 to $3,500 worst case scenario.

I will have to wait until Wednesday to get an actual number though.

Our dishwasher just started acting up too right before the first tiny leak, it may or may not be related to the leaks (lack of water pressure?) it doesnt disolve soap whether we use powder or those tabs, and if i open it during the cycle its just sort of drizzling in there. Its super old and i'm afraid to mention it to the warranty company while the rest of my problems are going on. haha ugh.

And you're right, i'm sifting through the HUD Manufacture Home codes and i don't see where it says anything about the straps other than that they have to withhold the weight, have to be spaced a certain distance apart, and can't be too tight so they dont cut plastic piping. Hmmm... it says something about material minimum standards in a sub (a) but when i search for it nothing comes up in google except for installing something on a deck. weird. I have the feeling i'm getting the run around here. I hope i don't have to take this to court. yuck.

I've seen a lot in my lifetime and never did I see copper straps on galvanized pipe cause anything but discoloration........

Sounds like your dishwasher is clogged with rust from the pipes. Good luck on getting it out. Best way is to remove the dishwasher. Turn it upside down, and clean the parts out where the water goes in... not fun, but do-able.

dances-with-pumps

Why not re-plumb with Wirsbo flexible plastic system?

Are the leaks at the straps?

Did you get a home inspection before purchasing?
Any decent inspector would have pointed out the copper straps.

We looked over the inspection papers again. The inspector did mention the straps and a little bit of corrosion but he never said it was something that needed to be fixed. He suggested several little things but never pointed this out to us.

We went ahead and got it fixed... all in copper. $2868. They re-rid everything from the faucets on down to the main.

It was supposed to be a 1 day job but the 2 guys didnt finish it the first day, so he said he was coming back at 9am the next day and never showed up. He called and said he would be there in an hour around 1 or so but never came. He ended up calling a couple days later and said that someone else was going to come out the next day and finish it. The guy came out and finished it but only put half the skirting back on our home.

The first guy was supposed to come back after that to put the skirt back, show us how to turn certain valves on and off, and answer some of our questions... but i havent heard back from him. Its been over a week now since they started.

The sent the bill though.

The First American company sent us a claim denial in the mail... i have tried to call our rep a couple times about it but i havent heard back from her either.

We're considering looking into an attorney.

Dunno if the whole Cumus Attorney thing works in California too... you said "most states"

Gotta look into it.

At least we have working water now though!

And if what you said about the Dishwasher being clogged by rust is true... im pretty sure that would get First American out of replacing that too. I remember something about that in there... how they wont replace things if its messed up due to sediment or rust etc i will probably have to just buy a new dishwasher and put it in myself. Its probably as old as the home and needs to be replaced anyway. Ill check out the papers when i go home and see what i can find on that as well.