# Curbless Shower

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• 12-17-2012, 04:38 PM
Freddie
Will work on floor joist drawing. Do you want to whole bathroom or would just the area around the shower work for you? Been through the whole design with a number of people; not much other locations for the shower anyways.

No TTMAC tile specs. Will get if I decide that I'm gonna do the tiling.

Was doing a heated floor but was not planning on doing it below the shower.
• 12-17-2012, 05:11 PM
Freddie
Also, can't seem to find much information on the linear grate linear drain from ACO except for the following:

http://www.quartzbyaco.com/grate-styles

It states that the Intake sq. in. = 55.38 which is 60% more than the next nearest grate style "Flag". Cannot find any spec on "Linear" grate flow rate and I would assume that it would get more than the Flag based on a higher intake. Looking at a chart they have in their technical manual for flow rates at 0" head:

No grate = 6.65 usgpm
Tile = 6.49 usgpm (makes sense that it would be less given that it has blocked off some of the intake area with tile)
Flag = 6.34 usgpm

Now this is where I get confused. Flag has intake sq. in. = 31.36 while Tile has intake sq. in. = 18.10. Wouldn't you think the one with the larger intake area would be able to process more flow?

Now trying to estimate flow for the linear grate which is not shown and it has intake sq. in. = 55.38.

So either this is not the intake opening of the grate or something is not correct.

All these numbers come from page 16 of the technical manual:

http://www.quartzbyaco.com/sites/def...l_handbook.pdf

Can anyone clarfiy? Thanks,
• 12-18-2012, 10:40 AM
johnfrwhipple
Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddie
Also, can't seem to find much information on the linear grate linear drain from ACO except for the following:

http://www.quartzbyaco.com/grate-styles

It states that the Intake sq. in. = 55.38 which is 60% more than the next nearest grate style "Flag". Cannot find any spec on "Linear" grate flow rate and I would assume that it would get more than the Flag based on a higher intake. Looking at a chart they have in their technical manual for flow rates at 0" head:

No grate = 6.65 usgpm
Tile = 6.49 usgpm (makes sense that it would be less given that it has blocked off some of the intake area with tile)
Flag = 6.34 usgpm

Now this is where I get confused. Flag has intake sq. in. = 31.36 while Tile has intake sq. in. = 18.10. Wouldn't you think the one with the larger intake area would be able to process more flow?

Now trying to estimate flow for the linear grate which is not shown and it has intake sq. in. = 55.38.

So either this is not the intake opening of the grate or something is not correct.

All these numbers come from page 16 of the technical manual:

http://www.quartzbyaco.com/sites/def...l_handbook.pdf

Can anyone clarfiy? Thanks,

Freddie ACO still has these squirrelled away in Germany I think. I have one on order for a job I helped with in White Rock and once I drop of the linear grate I'll measure the flow rate for you. Just have to remember to bring a 5 gallon with me.

The tile top drain's have the least room for water to enter the drain and the water does not have a direct vertical opening above the PTrap. This slows the flow rates we have found and with some hair build up here you can see a rise in water level.

The linear grate from ACO will be I'm sure the highest flow rate of their grate options - the tile top the lowest. I'll see if I can mock up a "Mad Lab Test" for you with the new liner grate when my back order arrives here in North Vancouver - I've been meaning to make a water table in my office. MIght be a fun Christmas Project.

JW
• 12-18-2012, 03:37 PM
Freddie
Here's my joist layout dwg after a bit of cutting out of the floor. Hopefully it shows up ok.Attachment 18261

Now let me explain:

1. The top horizontal line is the inside of the wall framing on the external wall.
2. The far right vertical line is the inside of the wall framing on the external wall.
3. The dashed line indicates a wall I will be adding to run the plumbing so that it is inside the insulation.
4. All the joist are 2" x 10".
5. Horizontal dimensions are (from right to left): 0,10,26,42 inches
6. Vertical dimension are (from top to bottom): 0, 26, 36.25,42,48.5 inches

Also, here is a snapshot of how it currently looks:

Attachment 18262
• 12-18-2012, 03:46 PM
Freddie
The linear grate from ACO will be I'm sure the highest flow rate of their grate options - the tile top the lowest.

That's what I would have thought as well. Just saying their data sheets seem a bit wonky on that. If you see a spec sheet on the linear grate with respect to flowrates I'd appreciate it if you could forward a copy or a link to it.

thx,
• 12-20-2012, 05:23 AM
johnfrwhipple
Hi Freddie.

I personally hate working over OSB sheathing like you have there. Any chance you plan on switching it out for regular sheathing?

Where the floor joists meet each other (IE North South meets West East) are those joist tied in to each other with a Simpson Strong Tie joist hanger? I can not see the nailing pattern on how these where ganged together. Are they nailed together from the other side. Stacks of 4 nails (3") on about 8-10" centres????

Any idea why the sub floor is going black in the bottom right corner? I would open up the drywall and inspect that wall a little near that area.

Is the linear drain going at the entry at roughly 42" off that back wall? If so then it's not so hard to recess that space as long as there is no HVAC, wiring, and plumbing in that bay.

Tha black ABS pipe appears to be rubbing the floor joists. How large of holes are drilled here? Make sure no holes are drilled within 2" of the joist top or bottom. That means the edge of the hole not it's center so a 2 3/8" hole drilled in a floor joist needs to be started no closer than 3 3/16" from the top or bottom...

JW
• 12-20-2012, 11:04 AM
FWIW, most of the strength in a solid joist is established by an intact top and bottom section - one in tension, the other in compression. The rules for drilling holes restrict cutting holes near the ends since that's where walls and things may be located and pose a crush risk. Other than that, the holes need leave the top and bottom of the joist intact. Think I-beam or truss...the top and bottom are important, while on some designs, the middle is mostly open. Basically, the middle holds the top and bottom in the right place in a beam, but may not contribute a lot to the overall strength. That's why there are restrictions on where you can drill holes. The further apart the top and bottom are, the stronger it gets (if you can keep the top and bottom aligned).
• 12-20-2012, 04:34 PM
Freddie
[QUOTE=johnfrwhipple;364870]Hi Freddie.

I personally hate working over OSB sheathing like you have there. Any chance you plan on switching it out for regular sheathing?

I have to take up at least 1/2 of the floor for mods to plumbing drains and water supply to freestanding tub so I was planning on changing it. What do you mean by regular sheathing? Plywood? Our whole house is OSB. What is your concern here?

Where the floor joists meet each other (IE North South meets West East) are those joist tied in to each other with a Simpson Strong Tie joist hanger? I can not see the nailing pattern on how these where ganged together. Are they nailed together from the other side. Stacks of 4 nails (3") on about 8-10" centres????

Looks like 3" nails in stacks of 2 every 16", no joist hangers.

Any idea why the sub floor is going black in the bottom right corner? I would open up the drywall and inspect that wall a little near that area.

Black is small surface mold from front corner of old shower base. I will be taking that up and replacing once I prepare for plumbing changes. Want to do all the flooring at the same time. Also there are some parts around the toilet that need replacing as well. So basically I'll but removing all of the floor by the end of it.

Is the linear drain going at the entry at roughly 42" off that back wall? If so then it's not so hard to recess that space as long as there is no HVAC, wiring, and plumbing in that bay.

Yes. Space has no HVAC, wiring, some water supply to toilet but that is a 1/2" line that runs below the joists; between the bottom of joist and ceiling drywall of 1st floor. The drain plumbing is a bit in the way and most likely will have to be moved. I have to up to 2" anyways so... It comes through the space currently parallel at 37" from the right wall.

Tha black ABS pipe appears to be rubbing the floor joists. How large of holes are drilled here? Make sure no holes are drilled within 2" of the joist top or bottom. That means the edge of the hole not it's center so a 2 3/8" hole drilled in a floor joist needs to be started no closer than 3 3/16" from the top or bottom...

Holes are just a bit bigger than the current 1.5" drain and are 3 1/4" from the top fo the 2 x 10. No rubbing.

Did talk to the city inspector by phone and as you said, no code with respect to curb or no curb, they don't even turn on the water. All they do is make sure plumbing changes were done to code and are inspected before flooring and walls put back on. No flood test but I be doing it anyways. Mostly concerned that proper waterproofing is done. 6' up in shower, 16" above tub with no hand spray, 3' - 11" with hand spray in tub. Water resistant floor outside of tub. Basically Ceramic tile is considered waterproof even with the grout. He said that most backing used is waterproof anyways. I guess he assumes no one will tile on drywall or greenboard in the shower without Kerdi or roll on waterproofing but that's a big assumption for those not doing the research.
• 12-21-2012, 05:14 AM
johnfrwhipple
I personally hate working over OSB sheathing like you have there. Any chance you plan on switching it out for regular sheathing?

I have to take up at least 1/2 of the floor for mods to plumbing drains and water supply to freestanding tub so I was planning on changing it. What do you mean by regular sheathing? Plywood? Our whole house is OSB. What is your concern here?

I just don't like it. I find it flexes to much and that regular sheathing is better. When you replace the subfloor make sure all ends are supported - even between the tounge and grove sections.

Where the floor joists meet each other (IE North South meets West East) are those joist tied in to each other with a Simpson Strong Tie joist hanger? I can not see the nailing pattern on how these where ganged together. Are they nailed together from the other side. Stacks of 4 nails (3") on about 8-10" centres????

Looks like 3" nails in stacks of 2 every 16", no joist hangers.

I like stacks of 4 on 8-10" myself. I would nail the back side and increase the fastners on that double. If there are no joist hangers I would add in some blocking between each floor joist and if possible slip in a strong tie and nail it off. This area under the curbless shower should be a tank.

Any idea why the sub floor is going black in the bottom right corner? I would open up the drywall and inspect that wall a little near that area.

Black is small surface mold from front corner of old shower base. I will be taking that up and replacing once I prepare for plumbing changes. Want to do all the flooring at the same time. Also there are some parts around the toilet that need replacing as well. So basically I'll but removing all of the floor by the end of it.

Nice to see that stuff gone.

Is the linear drain going at the entry at roughly 42" off that back wall? If so then it's not so hard to recess that space as long as there is no HVAC, wiring, and plumbing in that bay.

Yes. Space has no HVAC, wiring, some water supply to toilet but that is a 1/2" line that runs below the joists; between the bottom of joist and ceiling drywall of 1st floor. The drain plumbing is a bit in the way and most likely will have to be moved. I have to up to 2" anyways so... It comes through the space currently parallel at 37" from the right wall.

That's good. The trick now is to see how low the linear drain connection can be made. You need grade for the waste line and the P-Trap should not touch the ceiling below. How low can you rig this up? I find that most times we can drop this space 1-2" with no problems.

Tha black ABS pipe appears to be rubbing the floor joists. How large of holes are drilled here? Make sure no holes are drilled within 2" of the joist top or bottom. That means the edge of the hole not it's center so a 2 3/8" hole drilled in a floor joist needs to be started no closer than 3 3/16" from the top or bottom...

Holes are just a bit bigger than the current 1.5" drain and are 3 1/4" from the top fo the 2 x 10. No rubbing.

Any way to change that line to 2"?

Did talk to the city inspector by phone and as you said, no code with respect to curb or no curb, they don't even turn on the water. All they do is make sure plumbing changes were done to code and are inspected before flooring and walls put back on. No flood test but I be doing it anyways. Mostly concerned that proper waterproofing is done. 6' up in shower, 16" above tub with no hand spray, 3' - 11" with hand spray in tub. Water resistant floor outside of tub. Basically Ceramic tile is considered waterproof even with the grout. He said that most backing used is waterproof anyways. I guess he assumes no one will tile on drywall or greenboard in the shower without Kerdi or roll on waterproofing but that's a big assumption for those not doing the research.

Good on you for checking with the city and doing a flood test. Inspectors can be funny about these showers. Have you considered the electrical layout and it's relation to the floor area - especially the wet zone. KEEP THOSE SWITCHES AWAY. You will want to have your switches a meter away from any wet zone and 1.5 meters to be safe. We got hammered by the electrical inspector on a prior job and had to make some changes to keep him happy.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/z...pscc474508.jpg

Here is a picture of my buddies place. This is going to be a unique shower and heavy on the Chromotherapy. You can see the recess in the floor and a standard clamping drain. The drop is about 1 1/4" total. Look close and you will see Wonder (cement board) under all the heating wire. Under the 1/4" cement board is 5/8" Sheathing. Under that is another layer of 5/8" sheathing. So right at the drain drop I have 1 1/4" of sheathing plus 1/4" cement board. That's a tank and only 1/4" + build up at the subfloor.

SIDE NOTE:

Dale Kempster works for Schluter Systems and over the years has been a great resource for me and my shower builds. The fact that he continues to answer all my questions and help out people asking me for help is outstanding. Most of you that have followed my posts over the years know I have had some big issues with Schluter's membranes and customer service. Over the past few months I have learned that a thicker Kerdi Membrane is now available (Kerdi DS) and if I work with specific Ardex setting materials I can finally use modified setting materials with a Kerdi install. This second point is key for me since this is the way Kerdi is installed over seas.

Dale wrote a great article on curbless showers and you can find it here. http://www.kenilworth.com/publicatio.../files/70.html Have a read. The Kerdi showers shown are built by one of Canada's top setters back east. Check out Hugo's work here. http://www.facebook.com/pages/Cerami...07026669373300
• 12-21-2012, 05:15 AM
johnfrwhipple
http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/z...psebf6de13.jpg

In this install the floor joist where running the other direction so the linear drain could only drop a short ways down. Removing a slot cut and back framing below this floor allowed this barrier free shower to be made.

Once again you are looking 5/8" sheathing and 1/4" cement board. Under this floor is extra 2"x4" cross blocking since we could not double up the entire area with a second layer of plywood.

This is a great base to work from.

From this point we used a screeding mortar and slurry coat to go from 0 to 1.25".

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/z...psc927d4c1.jpg

At my buddies place we used some Noble Company "Noble Deck" for the the recess. Noble Deck is 40 mil thick ( 5 times the thickness of Kerdi at 8 mil) and great for tying into a three piece clamping drain. You can see that the trench has a bumping at the drain location. These creases cause because the trench slopes in both directions. I will be installing some Kerdi DS over the primary wet zones and seaming the two different sheet membranes with Ardex's 8+9 waterproofing compound. The inside corner and outside corners will be reinforced with more Ardex 8+9 and Kerdi corners.

The hole in the backer board at the wall is to allow me to run some low voltage wiring into the drain and will be closed up soon enough. We are pushing the boundries here with this install and going a little outside my comfort zone. That said we will flood test everything and my buddy is looking for a "Master Piece"!

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/z...psed8f3e3e.jpg

This shower has no door and two body jets. There is no way the water will stay inside the shower. You can see that around the toilet got Ditra and the three feet outside the shower will get Kerdi DS tied into the Ditra and Noble Deck.

Looking back to the entry you can see the Ditra installed. The subfloor here is only the original 5/8" Sheathing. Over that we installed 1/2 cement board. Over that floor heat. Over that screed coat. Over that Ditra. Over that tile. We will be built up at this end about 1 1/4" at the entry. At first the goal was a level entry but price always works it's way into these builds. A custom transition is much cheaper than lowering the subfloor in the entire bathroom!

JW
• 12-21-2012, 06:45 AM
johnfrwhipple
This is not a shower but rather a laundry closet. The home was built with a 1.5" radiant flooring pour and we blocked this area from the cement crew. We installed a three piece clamping drain and pre slope. I used Ardex 8+9 with some Noble Deck Flashing to tie into the clamping drain. The drain is an ACO plain edge - this drain typically installs over a white PVC clamping drain.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps158ec0d2.jpg

The tile setter on this job is one of my best guys. He installed a trim and boarder tile around the shower area to act as a dam. If the washer over spills or if a hose blows a lod of water will rush out from behind it. This linear drain and safety net of the tile trim will save the day..... fingers crossed.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/z...psdabb4bac.jpg

You can see that the trim is set to line up with the hardwood after it is glued down. From finished floor to drain grill height I have 5/8" or the thickness of my "Chubby".

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps71fab839.jpg

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps45c5ab4d.jpg

JW
• 12-23-2012, 01:36 PM
Freddie
Quote:

Originally Posted by johnfrwhipple

You can see that the trim is set to line up with the hardwood after it is glued down. From finished floor to drain grill height I have 5/8" or the thickness of my "Chubby".

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps71fab839.jpg

JW

John,

Pretty busy right now but trying to move forward a bit before we leave for NYC in a few days. Just looking at this picture and I assume that the trim was placed on the side as well at the same height above the drain to match up with the floor. Assuming that is true and that the floor drains from the laundry machines down to the linear drain then there should be 5/8" of drain from the right end of the drain to the trim. As you move farther back along the right side the mud will be rising but the trim will be remaining level so some funky tiling will be needed. Just trying to make sure I understand this to see if I can somehow use something like this in my application.

Also, are you aware of which linear drains are CSA approved for use in Canada? That's one thing the inspector mentioned; all things must be csa approved.

Have a good holiday season and probably won't hear from me until after the new year.
• 12-24-2012, 04:29 AM
johnfrwhipple
When the linear drain does not go wall to wall you will need some "Funky Tiling". That's a given.

I prefer relief cuts on the diagonal. The laundry room job is on hold while the hardwood guy does his thing and I just installed some Kerdi DS at my friends place yesterday.

Here is how it looks right now.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps083e4e4a.jpg

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps2f08d11e.jpg

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps504528c1.jpg

JW
• 12-24-2012, 04:31 AM
johnfrwhipple
CSA Approved curbless shower drains
Freddie the linear drains from ACO are CSA approved. They have a letter and a little sticker.

Soon the CSA mark will be engraved into the linear top.

In my shower above the primary drain is the black ABS clamping drain. It is CSA approved.

The line drains from Schluter, Noble, ACO and Proline are all CSA approved.

JW
• 12-24-2012, 06:57 AM
Freddie
Looks like LED lighting where the edge of the glass is going to go. Nice touch.

You mention ABS clamping drain. Did that comes with the linear drain? Looks familiar to what I've seen that is part of the Quartz linear drain install.
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