what is the best shower pan installation

I a general contractor, and I am building a new shower (in my own place). I was hoping that you could give me your opinion for what you would consider the best method or product to build a shower pan with a curb. I have not chosen my products yet so I can build it any way.

I hate to show my age but the last time I built one I lined it with lead and mortar.

My tile setter recommended using a Wedi shower pan but I'm not convinced. On the walls the Wedi seems flimsy. I was considering using Denshield. For shower surrounds I usually use cement board with red guard

Thanks

There are numerous methods, and done properly, they all can work quite well. Some can go together faster than others, with Wedi being one of the faster ones - you can have a bare studwall and subfloor, once the plumbing is set, potentially have it tiled in one day. Hard to do that on other systems where you want a full, tiled shower.

My personal preference is to use a surface waterproofing method rather than a conventional one. Redgard does work, but (this is a personal thing), I find it hard to ensure I get a full coverage at the required thickness without having areas either too thick, or too thin, or a pinhole here and there. Then, you have surface membranes, and there are at least several available to you in the states. I've used and been trained on Kerdi, which I like. You have a choice of either using a preformed pan, or building one with deckmud (cheaper, and easier to ensure it's level and the drain lines up properly), then cover it with the membrane. It is required to use their special drain, but I've found it to be very handy as you can easily adjust the exact placement after the main drain is installed for the grate. And, being square, makes cuts eaiser than a round drain cover.

Then, you have the choice of either a conventional, pitched shower to a central drain, or doing a linear drain. You have more choices for floor tile with a linear drain since you don't have to accommodate multiple slopes - you slope the entire shower pan in one direction to the drain (well, you can do a reverse pitch if the linear drain isn't at the wall).

The key to any of these is the workmanship and following one of the accepted industry practices (check out the TCNA handbook). Check out the videos on the Wedi and Schluter websites. Once you have tile installed and grouted, Wedi's foam boards (and KerdiBoard, if you choose to use it verses their sheet membrane) both are quite stiff.

There are other well regarded paint on waterproofing systems...read a little here on some other threads with search, and you'll get various opinions on them.

What do you mean by best?

If you are looking for thin membrane then Kerdi is the best. Only 8mil thick. This will make life easy for you installing.

If you want fast then Kerdi Board or Wedi Board is the best. You get nice lightweight backer boards that flex. You can carry all your board up in one go.

If by best you mean lowest Perm Rating in the industry then the sheet membranes from Noble Company win every time.

If by best you mean longest warranty then Hydro Ban and Red Guard win with a 25 year warranty.

Each shower needs to be specified around the time line and skill set of the installer.

JW

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/z...erproofing.jpg

Here is a look at my new favourite waterproofing product. It's called Ardex 8+9.

Another thing to consider when choosing a system is where the drain is located. If the drain is tight to one wall like this Tub to Shower conversion we prepared here in Vancouver a liquid or cementious membrane is "best".

The reason for this is that it is hard to get the membrane to lay down nice if it is not in the center of the shower. You will see a flash of Blue around the drain. That is a Noble Flex Flashing.

Lifetime drain connection warranty on this product if I'm not mistaken. 1 1/2" drain flashing used.

Allows me to give excellent weep hole drainage and a topical system for the most part.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/z...nVancouver.jpg

This is a Noble Company Point Drain. Made by Sioux Chief. Outstanding weep hole drainage. 4 bolts not three. Multiple weep hole locations. Solid drain.

You can see I used some Hemp Cord to keep the weep holes free.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/z...temnoplugs.jpg

Designer P Gravel - this p gravel layer further protects the weep holes from blocking up with the mortar layer.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/z...stallation.jpg

Ready for tile. The hemp cord gets trimmed flush once dry. These little strands will dissolve leaving tunnels for the water to migrate faster directly to the weep holes.

The Best Shower Pan is a system or a complete design.

We self inspected this shower with a 71.75 hour flood test. Passed with flying colours.

Which ever system you choose make sure the flood test gets preformed. 15 minutes is all that is require in much of the States - 24-72 hours is what is required for proper test results. It's your shower - make sure it's flood tested.

JW

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/z...diandArdex.jpg

If you are using little tiles like these 2"x2" tile then a little forgiveness is nice. The Kerdi drain allows some wiggle room at install time. This is small barrier free shower system in Vancouver and was prepared using a hybrid approach of Ardex 8+9 and Kerdi.

If you contact Ardex you can get a ten year warranty system with this approach. Twice the warranty that Schluter or Kerdi give out by themselves. And the kicker is you can use better thin-sets!

JW

On a busy job site with multiple trades everywhere the "Best" Shower pan liner is this stuff. Noble Seal TS or Noble Seal SIS. 30 mil thick (thickness of your bank card) and bondable to the substrate and tillable if set over a proper substrate.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/z...obleSealTS.jpg

With multiple niches and a floating bench I prefer liquid or cementious membranes. So heavy protection down low and ease of application up high. Lapping the second over the first (not shown in this picture) is key to success and should happen above the height of the curb.

As with all our projects this shower was flood tested and inspected by a Vancouver Plumbing Inspector.

If "Best" is price driven then an old school liner takes the cake.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/z...gularliner.jpg

This shower was prepared as cheap as possible. A simple 30mil liner from Master.

This basic could be improved with one of Noble Company's premium 40 mil liners.

The shower was flood tested for 3 weeks. When there are lots of guys working on a home the safest thing for the shower is to keep it full of water! This way it does not become a work zone or a tool drop location. You would think that is common sense - but you would be wrong...

JW

Rob, I think that is you are installing the pan yourself and you are not a full time tile setter, I would recommend one of the foam pans that are out there. They are probably the most difficult to screw up as far as leaks, clogged weap holes, etc. Also, you don't have to use the foam panels (Wedi board) if you don't want.

Both Noble and Schluter both make foam pans that you can put cement or hardi board on and then a waterproof sheetgood over it (Nobleseal TS or Wall Seal; Schluter's Kerdi fabric). Also Laticrete has jumped into the game with foam pans and you use cement or hardi board and then paint their liquid waterproofer over it (HydoBan). All of these are good, solid systems. Laticrete's is probably the most similar to the way you are used to doing it.

Jim I like many different waterproofing products from all the companies you listed above - BUT - a foam pan is something you will not ever see in my projects. Not for the pan and not for the curb. These systems are engineered for hotel projects - job sites where one installer must build 13 showers in a day.

If someone is hesitate to build there own shower base then maybe they could hire a pro for this step and then take it from there.

Using a linear drain and a basic rubber liner is a very easy install. Using a thin-set like Ardex X32 allows users to go from 1/4" to 1" in thickness. Thats a lot of forgiveness.

Keep the foam where it belongs - around your coffee cup.

JW

A mudbed is by far the least expensive way to build a shower and correct any flaws (and has the most flexibility of drain placement). And, while it does take some skill, it isn't all that hard to master. But, for ultimate speed and guaranteed proper slope (assuming your floor is level, which may NOT be the case), the foam pan wins. Personally, the foam does provide some insulation, and when first stepping into it, it is decidedly warmer. So, since your time is money, and you haven't done this before, the higher cost of a foam pan verses mudbed may make some sense.

I think it depends on who is doing the tile. If someone is not a skilled tile setter I think the foam pans are a good way to reduce the risk of user error. :)