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I am trying to find a slightly used or new tank to put at point of use.under our kitchen sink in basement. Do you know where i can find one for under $250.00--or this the going price for them. She wastes water a ton! running off a 120 feet of pipe +cold water, each day. to get hot water.Any good ideas bob s ////and thank you for whatever you have on this.
Put in a recirc pump.
A recirculating system is be far the best. My preference is the type that uses a return line (from the farthest fixture). This of course can be a problem retrofitting some homes. Where the return line is impractical, there is a type that installs at the fixture that works pretty well according to my information. I see I already pointed you in that direction in your other post.
Recirculation pumps can save water, but can be a real waste of energy, even if the pipes are insulated, and even those where you call the hot water with a button/switch. With 120' of pipe and 120' of return you'd be looking at more than 2 gallons of hot + tepid water abandoned in the system on a one-quart of kitchen sink draw. Most kitchen draws are pretty low volume.
A local point of use tank-let is a better solution, and it's doubtful that it needs to be as big as 6 gallons for a kitchen. (And yes, the few point-of-use tanks that cost under $200 usually aren't worth owning, so expect to pay something on the order of ~$250.)
Which is hilarious since true value sells 40 gallon elecrics for $199 on sale. Put it on the outside wall and abandon the old feed line.
I respectively disagree that recirculation pumps are a huge waste of energy. I have one that has been in 24/7 use for 6 or 8 years and I have not noticed any difference in my power bill. I'm sure my computer draws far more electricity than that little pump. It obviously uses some energy, but it has to be pennies, not dollars. That electric point of use heater isn't cheap to operate and will have to be replaced
I think Dana is referring to the losses in heat from the HWT, not the energy to drive the pump. Sure, there is bound to be some loss through that length of run particularly if you have a continuous recirc, but the ones with the push button that only work on demand would be minimal. Even the bit of tepid water pushed into the cold (improvised return) would be used to blend back in with the hot in most cases.
Again, the only real downside of the improvised return is if you drink directly from the tap. IMHO if drinking from the tap, one would likely run it for a while so as to make it run colder, just like running the hot to get it hotter.
The POU tank may be more energy efficient but with the initial cost, the ROI could be considerable.
It's the difference in installed cost between the two solutions that would need to be made up if you're doing an NPV calc on the energy savings to determine an ROI- a recirculation system worth owning isn't exactly free.
Even though a DIY POU tank install might marginally more expensive than a DIY recirculation system, the hardware costs aren't radically different and the tank could even be cheaper if he is going to run 120' of dedicated return plumbing, and there's no user-education required- the hot water is always there, the cold water is always cold, etc. (Not having to explain how your "fix" is better than what came before has to be worth something, eh? ;-) )
And yes, nobody cares about the energy use of the pump compared to the energy used to heat the water, even for the piggiest of pumps. The cost of that hot water will vary pretty dramatically depending on the fuel used and water heating method: An embedded coil in an oil or propane fired boiler gets to be pretty expensive in MI, but natural gas (either standalone tank or boiler) is pretty cheap. Electric rates vary widely, wouldn't even take a stab a how that compares without knowing which utility is supplying it.
Ballvalve: Yeah it seems odd how tiny tanks of any quality cost as much or more than standard sized tanks, but that's all about tooling, storage, & production volume. The little Bosch Aristons seem to hang in for quite awhile in some installations, but fail fast in others- not sure if it's a water-quality or what, but I've stopped recommending them. And they're not super-cheap either.
I was factoring additional cost to upgrade the electrics to support a POU heater. Then, you still have standby losses on said heater.
I agree though about the user-education. Have you met my wife?
Haven't met her yet, are you going to introduce us? :)