I likely have 50 relays in my shop, one machine with 12 or more, many that I built to control 3 phase machines, many with multiple delay timers to reduce current inrush. All in boxes, and all 30 years in the works, without any issues.
But You are not stupid at all, you are just overthinking a very simple situation. Save it for something important. how about 2 of these twist timers?
Well, I didn't totally read JW's post, I just got pissed, sorry. I addressed the transformers issue he brings up. He talks about the relays, below is info from the data sheet for the relays, that was posted earlier:
• Ideally suited for high-inrush fluid pump controls: pool/spa, water
processing, emergency, chemical industry, etc.
• High-capacity, high-withstand voltage relay with no contact chattering
for momentary voltage drops up to 50% of rated voltage.
• UL Class B construction standard
Would they will suffice for a fan with specs as follows: 1.7 amps, 120 watts
The point, I have been trying to make is that everyone is trying to tell me it can't be done, or rather I shouldn't do it, or do it their way. Not specifically why my way is bad or helping me solve the problem. Again, I go back to the box. I understand if open connections need to be in a box. I will make that a criteria. I understand if the relays need to be rated for the fan. I will make that a criteria. If the transformers should not be on 24/7, I understand that and can make that a criteria. But, I am not getting much help from the thread, just people telling me to quite. I am trying to pick the grain through the chaff, but it is getting frustrating. And during the discussion (if one ever ensues), I will want to discuss the importance and necessity of the information given, to understand why and see if there might be more solutions to that issue. Granted one person can just say do it this way, but I guarantee you there are pleny of places on this forum where many experts suggest alternative ways to do things, would do it different ways if they were doing it and bicker and debate code, so I know there is not ONE way/rule/law, it's all open to interpretation. Safety actually is the one rule and I intend to adhere to that, one way or another. And don't throw that back in my face, because again, it has not been said A is unsafe because of XXX. I can't fix a problem if I don't know what it is.
I appreciate ballvalve chiming in on the switches. i have thought of those, but wanted something a little more modern, maybe even technological or sophisticated, whatever you want to call it. Those twist spring timers look like something my grandma had in her bathroom, just personal preference.
I sincerely hope that I don't make any one mad. I dread starting to read threads and see them devolve into a flame war and I apologize that this has approached that. I'm sure there are years of dealing with people on the forum that make you wish i would go away and that is fine, but once you've said you peace, why not just leave it alone. Terry can delete the thread, people can ignore me, but coming back to debate it just eggs me on, and happily, JW came back one more time so i can make my point that all the information isn't out there. No amount of any one chiding me is going to make me quit until I want to quit. And I'm probably not going to quit until I know why I should and that I can't fix what is wrong. And it won't be from anyone's assessment so far, because as JW proved, enough information has not been given about what I am doing.
Peace and thanks, honestly, for anyone who still cares to follow this and not write me off.
You are correct in part with your adjective used to describe me, omniscient, as it concerns the electrical codes namely the NEC. I have been an instructor for the past 5 code cycles and deeply involved with my state in writing the manuals used to teach upcoming electrical inspectors for my state.
Originally Posted by jdanw
The one thing I can tell you for sure and certain without one little bit of doubt is this will not fly and will in the end cause you much distress.
As to my assumptions as to the reasons for such a dangerous installation I had nothing to base them on except past experiences.
Having something as you are planning is not going to aid in the removal of moisture or having the fans run endlessly doesn’t either. The size of the fan is what will determine the amount of removal. It would be a lot easier to just replace the fan with a larger unit than take the chances you are attempting. You could do as the rest of us omniscient folks and simply leave the bathroom door open to remove this moisture or maybe you want everyone to think as I and think you have a bowel problem that leaves a pungent odor behind.
In order for this jury rig set up to be compliant the devices and inductors will be required to be installed in a NEMA certified enclosure and all conductors in some approved raceway or cable that is secured to the enclosure by an approved fitting. The enclosure will be required to be bonded and all equipment grounding conductors will be required to be properly installed and bonded together.
The use of the white conductor is not allowed nor is the grounded conductor of the circuit allowed to be switched; it must be electrically continuous from the supplying panel to the load it serves.
You are correct in the statement that I didn’t look at the diagram you posted as it was at this point I was thinking about closing this thread simply due to the dangerous contraption that it is. The only advice I would give is the advice I have already given.
Now you can proceed with the 10 steps on how to burn down a house or you can listen to the advice of a very seasoned veteran of the electrical trade and abandon this ridiculous idea. But let me inform you that the minute that this thread starts leading into something dangerous or a violation of the codes it will be closed.
Okay then let me address it this way but I will not go into a lot of detail as it would take weeks and you wouldn’t read it all due to its length.
Originally Posted by jdanw
This simply says that if the installation does not conform to the minimum standards of this code it is unsafe.
This means that any parts used for this installation must be listed for the job for which you are installing them.
I could go on and post all the code sections that would address this installation but just reread the first sentence of this post and you will understand why I am not going to attempt doing this.
"In order for this jury rig set up to be compliant the devices and inductors will be required to be installed in a NEMA certified enclosure and all conductors in some approved raceway or cable that is secured to the enclosure by an approved fitting. The enclosure will be required to be bonded and all equipment grounding conductors will be required to be properly installed and bonded together. "
That is what I was thinking.
I would not build anything like this without fuses also mounted in a certified enclosure. The main breaker gives very little protection, as well as wood mounted electrical devices.
Especially when the Fan can make the flames larger.
When you're dealing with line voltage, the whole circuit must be designed, tested, and approved for the application and installed properly. What you are trying to do is available as a commercial product (FanTec makes similar things) that passes all those hoops. Nothing you do, while it might work, will have passed UL testing, or be an approved device. Your insurance and livelyhood is at risk when you deal with this sort of thing should some subsequent owner have problems with it and your insurance may be declared null and void should a problem be traced back to it while you are there.
It's just not worth it!
No body wants to write you off, they just care about your safety.
Originally Posted by jdanw
I have built some crazy things in my day, but getting information on a forum can be misleading.
Jim explained the reason very well.
You can use the parts for a safer project.
If you go with your current plan, You should not make it public.
If you know what you are doing you should be able to do it without asking questions.
Peace, Over and out.
I don't understand which part of what I am doing is any different than the Fantech solution. The fan is designed for removing moisture from bathrooms. Fantech doesn't have powered dampers. I assume they are just back draft dampers, so when you turn their fan on it takes air from all places there is a grill. I guess I understand the relays maybe not being properly installed, but let's take those out of the equation and just wire everything direct. Switch comes on, energizes the circuit that powers the fan and transformer. Does this make a difference?
Originally Posted by jadnashua
How about if the fan plugged into an outlet in the attic? Again, switch energizes the outlet, just like the one in my bedroom that is designed to turn lamps on.
I am redrawing the circuit and will finish depending on what is said to this...TIA
Then what's the point of this forum? It seems we are gaining something from this thread, even if it ultimately results in me changing my mind one way or another. If I "knew" what I was doing, I'd have just done it as I planned, never asked any questions and, as you guys say, have an accident waiting to happen in my attic. Asking questions is good...
Originally Posted by DonL
Here in lies the questions and comments that has been made about your installation.
Originally Posted by jdanw
Just what are you trying to accomplish and how are you going about doing this project? How many different locations are you trying to control how many different fans and why? Just what purpose do the dampers play in this? Why they are even needed?
Most people have a fan for every bathroom that vents to the outside so why are you installing this? Is there going to be only one fan that vents many bathrooms?
If what you are attempting to do is use one fan for more than one bathroom then the mechanical code is going to require that the fan and exhaust duck work be sized to the amount of square footage you are venting.
Maybe if we had more information about what you are attempting to do we could give more guidance but as I have already stated I have never seen this work in the many years I have been in the electrical trade. It is not that I want you to do something my way it is a simple fact of my past experiences seeing something like this attempted before that resulted in a complete mess.
In my years of experience I have installed many ventilation systems where only one fan was used and the controllers were in multiple locations and every one of these came as a package unit and worked fine. I have also saw bathrooms where someone had tried to do what you are doing that ended up costing more to repair than a whole house ventilations system would cost installed.
Based solely on the information you have given for the fans it looks like the small 25CFM fans that are installed in most bathrooms. If you are trying to use it for more than one bath it will need to be three times that size.
My master bath has 81 square feet and I have a 300 CFM fan installed for it and I still have to open the door to get the mirror to clear. The fan is so strong that once the door knob is turned the fan will pull the door open so by this one can see that unless there is air introduced to the room then all the fan in the world is not going to accomplish moisture or odor removal.
At any rate the relays and transformers have to be listed for the purpose you are using them for and they must be in an approved enclosure (not wood). The conductors you have must be either in a raceway or a cable and they must be secured to the enclosure in an approved manner. The same is true for the dampers and fans.
I will be glad to guide you through this as long as everything you are attempting to do is code compliant.
I'll go for that: We don't understand exactly what you are trying to do. Give more information. But I would reserve relays strictly for controlling high draw motors where a standard switch would be short lived or very expensive.
I often hook up submersible pump pressure switches to control the pump via a relay. The pressure switch contacts then carry very little current and the heavy relay does the millions of cycles they are designed for.
First let me say, that the equipment is bought and nearly impossible to get me to completely start over, so I need to work with what I have, for the most part. Dampers are inline and installed, Fan is installed. It's just the wiring that need to be completed. I understand an appreciate what you are saying JW, but I just want the system to run. Let me worry about makeup air, whether the system accomplishes the goal,. I need to know how to get it wired correctly.
OK, the objective is to ventilate two bathrooms with a single inline fan and control via N.O. dampers. I do not want both bathrooms being ventilated every time the fan is on. That's just the way we want it.
The reason my electrician acquaintance suggested the relays is the damper power. We need to make sure that only 120V gets to the fan, so that power has to originate from the same source and not from two separate circuits (right? again, his words). I could wire the fan with 3-way timers, but how to get the power pulled off for just one damper? Hence the use of relays.
So, if all of the wiring is in the outer insulation, it is a cable and will be complaint, right? When it exits this outer insulation, and hence the cable, it needs to be in an approved enclosure, right? (just like the rest of the house wiring , into a covered box) I was going to suggest the transformers be attached to a metal box as they are typically mounted, with the line voltage side in of course, but how about mounting them to an enclosure that JW suggested, with the relays mounted in the enclosure and all wiring in cable or boxes. And everything with a ground will have one and it will be connected (I think my original timers do not, so no ground there). Is that what I am hearing?
Originally Posted by jwelectric
Please, Please help me figure this out with the equipment I have. It seems the parts are being used for what they were designed for, so it's just the installation now right? I am in the process of re-insulating my attic and want to get this wrapped up, so I don't have to go up there and trample the new insulation.
Thanks again...Drawing to come today...
Have you got your permit for this job yet? Will it be inspected as it is required by law?
You have made a few statements in your post above that has me wondering if your intent is to make this installation with safety thrown out the window and the world be damned.
There is a lot more to what you are attempting than what you want to consider. You are sold on a foolish idea and will not listen or even discuss what the flaws are. You simply state that you are going forward with or without help.
Is the fan large enough to vent both baths at one time? The one you mentioned earlier in this thread is not and will be a failure.
All conductors of a circuit must be contained in the same cable or raceway and this includes the hot neutral and equipment grounding conductors. One wire of a conductor cannot be used and the rest left unattached as this will cause heating.
What has happened to that electrician you had giving you advice, did he quit?
Play it safe
Really the short here is to build it the safest way that you can.
I would put all of the electronics in a properly enclosed box.
It may not meet code and it may not need to be inspected, but it should for the protection of your family.
Where I live you can do as you please in your own house, For the most part.
If you do have a insurance claim then it would be best to have it up to NEC code, even if not required.
If you have questions about how it should be wired then consult your personal electrician.
If it was me I would have a fart sensor to open the proper vent and have the fan turn on automagically.
Just be safe playing with electricity.
What makes relays inherently dangerous? Not that you need one to control a 1.7 amp load...
But if he puts it in a heavy UL box and mounts it on an exterior wall, thats pretty safe, providing he knows the wiring theory.
But again, wishing to over-design and go no need "tech" is not a good place to play in the house. Grandmas timer works clean. Also they have electronic switches with adjustable off delays. I built a box for a 20HP sander with a on delay timer for the 5hp dust collector, so not to smoke the panel. Already blew up one transformer outside and had a nice small forest fire.