There is a post a few pages back that showes a nice trim ring that makes it look very good IMO. I can imagine the frustrations on both sides of the argument but wrong instructions are a part of life, no? I did my bathroom remodel with mostly Kohler products and found mistakes in two product manuals (shower door and shower handle like the Moen). Instead of blindly following orders I called up Kohler who admitted to the mistake and pointed me to an online updated manual. Sure it took a little longer, but I wanted to make sure I was doing it right because I only got once chance before I put up the tile.
Originally Posted by dustindriver
Moreover, I took all the pieces and test fit them with scraps of the tile I would be using to make sure it lined up properly. In the end, I have a nice finished job that "looks like the catalog" because I know that instructions can be wrong. However, this was the first time in my life I ever did a bathroom remodel...
I have been reading this post on the handle on the Moen valves sticking out too far and some of the remedies. This really intrigued me since I just purchased the Moen veritcal spa kit and have the rough in valves to install this week but I wont have the trim for about 3 weeks. I know the thickness for my finished wall, so no problem there but if I install this the way the instructions call for and install the volume valves also the same way, is the handle on the temp valve and the volume valves all going to stick out? If I set all of these back 1" is this going to work for all the valves?
Vertical Spa Installation Guide
Thanks for editing my post and placing the installation guide on there. I printed that about 2 weeks ago from a previous post that you placed that on. Great information, as is the rest of this site, but still doesn't explain how deep to set the valves, mostly with this issue of "Handles sticking out too far".
Most of the plaster guards have a min/max value. Most people prefer the look of the thing when it has nearer the minimum projection where the trim will still fit. If you err on this, you'd need an extention kit to allow the trim to fit, then you end up with it sticking too far out again. So, mock up your wall thickness and make sure you are closer to the minimum projection but still within acceptable range, and you'll be okay. The best solution would be to have the trim in hand, and mock the wall thickness up to then decide where YOU like it, rather that a WAG.
Thank you. After talking to Moen today and explaining my concern and the type of trim I am purchasing they assured me that I would not have the same problem since the trim is completely different than the ones shown at the beginning of this post. They also explained that with my trim I only have a 3/16 to 1/4" play which is well within my parameters for the mock up I have made. It is just a matter of putting it all together now.
Thanks again for the help.
Thanks for posting this information about the Moen Handle Sticking Out Too Far. I was plumbing in the Moen Valve and did a mock up for depth placement with the plastic cover flush with edge of the finished wall. I used a tile and a small peice of drywall to estimate it's thickness. Well I found that it stuck out too far if I followed the Moen instructions (I had to download them as the ones in the box were just pictorial). Yes the handle would function but it wouldn't look good. Kind of like having a door knob stick 6 inches out from a door, it will work but it ain't pretty! I ended up moving the valve further back in the wall cavity before I had put up the drywall, Kerdi and tiles. Very happy in the end but I did a lot of head scratching in the beginning, it sure didn't look like the nice picture they showed. One weird design that could be made a lot nicer looking. Lesson learned, read the instructions, do the mockup, then if it seems wrong go to the internet, chances are someone else has had the same problem with the same model as you. Thanks everyone
Now, IF you had been paying a plumber to install that valve, would you have been happy with the SEVERAL hundred extra dollars he would have charged to go through the gyrations you did to get the handle a fraction of an inch closer to the wall? Especially, if YOU then decided to make a "minor" change in the wall or tile and it became TOO deep in the wall to finish without additional labor or an extension kit? I think not, and THAT is why we use the manufacturer's min/max specifications regardless of the handle's projection from the wall.
Moen sells junk
From your post in 2007 I find it funny that I ran into the same problem in 2012. Moen simply sucks. They know that they have this probem and they continue to sell the same junk with the same problems. In south Florida most upscale homes are made with concrete block and stucko with a 1/2 inch nailer, sheet rock then tile (wood is bug food down here). Installed the product per Moen instructions more or less just diagrams.
Originally Posted by Daydream46
So when installing the same shower valve five years later I have the same problem and it looks like hell. Pure junk. Moen answer move the valve back to allow the handle to be flush. Oh, you want me to take off the tile, sheet rock, knock a huge whole in the concrete block and change the plumbing just so your junk will be flush. You got to be kidding me. Moen plan B we will send you an extention for the plate that will give the tolarable distance of 3/4 of an inch. Give me a break. Moen shower handle sticks out and looks like crap.
"Moen simply sucks. They know that they have this probem"
moen does not have a problem.. it is simply whomever installed the valve who has the "problem"
it is OK where it is. if you wanted it closer, you could have talked to whomever installed it BEFORE it was installed & where you expected it to be.
Moen (and most other manufactuers) give a range of acceptable fitment for their valves. From their viewpoint, if it fits, it's okay. But, since there's a range, it is up to the individual to decide where THEY want it. SOrt of like deciding where to hang a picture...not everyone will like it in the same place. YOU have to try it and decide. The manufacturer is just telling you the range in which it will fit. It's always best to mock up the wall configuration and valve placement to decide if it's the look you are after. If not, and you can't change the valve placement, choose a different brand that may have a different set of limitations that meet your criteria of acceptable asthetics - don't blame the manufacturer on this (although they are not blameless maybe for not telling you).
I have never cared much for the Moen line myself but in order to not make this a "I hate Moen thread" will say that having the trim onsite with the rough in is key to nailing these installs. I'd class Moen in with a huge class of what I call Low End fixtures. These low end fixtures offer a good price and cheap replacement parts. Easy to service. Fast to install. Cheap. Cheap. Cheap.
Higher end fixtures like my favourite Dornbracht ones offer up better design, better site sizing, better leak protection and on and on. The difference is in the install and how the trim is installed.
With some fixtures great effort is needed to achieve a certain look. Perhaps the backing for the Moen shown above was installed as a 2"x10" - perhaps using some 3/4" plywood would have made this install look that much better.
Sometimes its crap in the wall. Maybe the collar is not fully sitting back into the wall???
If you leave these types of choice to the plumbers - you get what you get.
Here is the same valve as above. A Moen Posi-Temp. I just trimmed this out today.
I like the fact that there is a range that the valve can work at. I'm not a big fan of tearing things out when the surround that gets installed is either too thin or too thick. Moen is pretty hard to screw up. Even if it's set too far back, it's doable.
Kohler does have some tub shower trims that do have a more consistent finished look to them though. There are some options in valve selection.