Wrong Well tank Bladder vs hydro-pneumatic

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Ed Jaws

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Hi all, glad I found your forum and hope I can get some help.

I come from an auto mechanics background, now retired, and fix plenty of things I didn't know anything about before I became a homeowner. Some thing I keep my hands off is my well system including the tank, iron filter, and water softener.

I recently had a "professional" redo my though three items above, including a RO under sink system, and he replaced the galvanized tank with a bladder tank. I must say everything looked great when he was done but right away I noticed tiny air bubbles coming out of the RO system and the normal faucets. The bubbles clear up within seconds but I never had them before. Calling him back he said it would clear up soon. Follow up calls went unanswered so he obviously wanted nothing more to do with me and my problem.

Trying to make a long story short, after I did my research, I found my well pump system most likely has air bleed towards the top of the vertical run from the pump. It looks like the pipe leading from the well pipe to inside the house is only a few feet below ground level and water bleeds out of this line to prevent freezing. The vertical run in the basement sits above the top of the pressure tank and is approximately 5 feet from the outside basement wall to the pump vertical pipe. I do know the old tank would build up air in the tank because it didn't have a air control valve installed and every so often I would have to let air escape through the schrader valve near the top of the tank where the pressure gauge was.

I guess my questions are am I making the proper assumption of the system I got?

Going back to a galvanized or epoxy tank would be a proper solution?

Which one is better between the two?

Should there be a check valve in the line before the pressure switch? There isn't one there now nor from what I remember before with the galvanize tank. I don't lose pressure in the system with all faucets closed.

Can a CSV be incorporated with a hydro-pneumatic tank?

Is there someone in north eastern Illinois that you can recommend to straighten out my problems? The few places got in touch with never got back to me. Is replacing a pressure tank not a big enough job to deal with?

Sorry for the long post.

Ed
 

Reach4

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only a few feet below ground level and water bleeds out of this line to prevent freezing.
A few feet... maybe 3.5 feet?

Tell us about the things between your pressure tank (tank tee) and where the pipe goes through the basement wall. A photo of that span would be best.

Letting the air out of the top of the bladder/diaphragm tank is not the answer. Stop that.
 

Ed Jaws

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The outside ground level is at the top of the concrete blocks perhaps a few inches above that outside the house. From the bottom of the floor joist to the bottom of the pipe that leads outside is exactly 24" as you can see by the pictures. Years ago I did have a leak by the well head at one of the connectors that puddled water on the surface. I shut the pump off, dug up the dirt around the standing water. I got a plumber to do the piping work and he commented that my water should be freezing as it was shallow where the pipe makes the horizontal run to the house.

As per my first post I commented the original tank was a galvanized hydro-pneumatic tank without an air control valve. That's the one I had to bleed air out of the system because eventually it was all air and hardly any water sitting in the tank. I may be old but not senile enough yet to bleed air out of a bladder tank. ;)
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Reach4

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I think that either white thing that is about a foot from the wall, or the gray thing next to the white, is a check valve. If you can get rid of that, or get rid of its innards, that may/should solve the air in water problem. By keeping the well drop pipe under pressure, the drain-back valve in the drop pipe may stay closed. I was looking for a snifter valve (like a schrader valve that admits air if there is a vacuum), but I don't see that. Maybe the person who put in your pressure tank removed the sifter. Those can be in the casing, I think. If the drain-back valve leaks, the pump will cycle even when no water is being drawn. In that case, you could put up with that, or you could have the drain back valve/orifice removed.

Unfortunately the pressure tank is one that actually has a bladder. Those work fine, but often not for as many years as one with a diaphragm. I think that bladder probably replaceable.

You need to restore the precharge air you let out. Turn off the pump, and drain the water to zero water pressure by opening a faucet. Then add air to 2 PSI less than your cut-on pressure. For example, if your pressure switch is set to 40/60, set the precharge air to 38 PSI.
 
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Craigpump

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If you had an air maker type of system with your old galv tank, you had a control center with a check valve in it.

Eliminating the check valve in the house probably won't keep a drain back valve closed, especially if it's simply a small hole in the drilled into the drop pipe. Also, eliminating the check valve in the house will cause the tank to fill then drain back into the well repeatedly.

The best thing to do is to pull the pump up, find the bleeder orifice and eliminate it.
 

Ed Jaws

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Thanks for helping Reach4.

Being a retired auto mechanic certainly doesn't qualify me as a plumbing expert but I don't think eight of those pieces are a check valve. The gray one looks like a simple female to male steel adaptor that's sized up to fit the white plastic connector but I've been wrong more than once.

I'm positive there was no snifter valve in the previous galvanized tank either. Can't say I'm positive there wasn't a check valve there though but I don't remember one. Now perhaps there is a check valve just outside the exterior wall but other than that I don't see how my system holds pressure. And to be sure, pressure does not drop when no water is being drawn from any faucet.

Again, I did not let out any precharge air from the tank that's now installed. I only did that on the previously installed galvanized hydro-pneumatic tank because it filled with so much air you could tip it over with one finger it was so light. As I said whoever installed it never put an air control valve in the tank to keep the air at the proper level.

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Ed Jaws

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craigpump

If you had an air maker type of system with your old galv tank

Bingo, that's what I had. In my research I read all about snifter valves just ahead of check valves that work in conjunction with bleeder valves about 5 feet down from the well head. But again I never seen a snifter valve on the old air maker type system nor anything that looked like a check valve where would normally be with a snifter valve. That another reason I'm stumped how the system doesn't lose pressure unless there's an outside check valve.

Now our winters in northern Illinois can get down right cold and would worry about water freezing in the line from the drop pie to the house seeing how shallow it is.
 

Reach4

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In http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=8103551 there is some discussion of the bleeder and snifter system for adding air. Reply #15 has a picture showing the snifter in the casing.

So the options seem to be to get the bleeder removed, add some kind of auxiliary air release system, or to get a tank with an air release valve.

If you tried to add an auxiliary air release, note that there is a bunch of air pushed up into the system each time the pump starts. So if there is not sufficient space, the air would go shoot by the release.

http://plastomatic.com/venting-valves.html has a picture and some description. I don't know the parts.

If your well does not have a pitless adapter below the frost line and a casing that sticks up about a foot above the ground, you may want to consider a major operation here. Big bucks, but it is a worthwhile investment. I had my well pit demolished, casing extended, and pitless installed.

Edit: if your polyethelene pipe is only 2 or 3 ft down, you may want to give added consideration to returning to a tank with an AVC and adding a snifter inside. The point would be to drain the water.

If that is steel pipe 2 ft down, you might consider getting that replaced with polyethylene and getting a new pitless. Click Inbox.
 
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PumpMd

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He has a POS Well-Mate quick connect tank. The POS Replaceable Air Cell changes from the bottom of the tank. The red clip at the bottom of the tank is dead giveaway. I'm going with Craigpump on the bleeder orifice not being plugged or removed. Sears would use a solid check valve by the tank and two bleeder orifices in the well to make it work.
 
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Ed Jaws

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I won't get rid of the bleeders because of the shallow horizontal pipe leading to the house. I don't want frozen pipes. Those auxiliary air release system looks like it uses a non-bladder tank which I never had a problem before with the old galv tank. I guess I'll take what's behind door number 3, a non-bladder tank, and go back to a galvanized one this time with an air control valve installed.

I fairly positive I don't need a snifter valve because my original galv. tank didn't have one and it was getting plenty of air in the tank. This well pump company's utube video at 1:15 shows what I probably got for my well pipe and he keeps them with updated bleed valves at 3:45, ready to go into the hole at 5:33.

I still don't get why I don't have an in house check valve and how the tank holds pressure without one. Obviously the plumber that installed mt POS bladder tank wouldn't know I had drain-back valves on the well pump pipe and as I use as a reference this site:
http://inspectapedia.com/water/Snifter_Valve.php
http://inspectapedia.com/water/Snifter_Valve.php

which states:

Watch out: if on a submersible well pump system that uses a snifter valve for air volume control you later convert a bladderless water pressure tank to a tank using an internal bladder, you should remember to remove both the snifter valve located on the check valve near the water pressure tank and the bleeder orifice or drain-back valve located on the well piping.

If you fail to remove these components you will suffer from constant air discharge at the building faucets and other plumbing fixtures as the air injected into the piping system will be pushed into the water-containing bladder in the new pressure tank: a location from which there is no escape as there is no air volume control and no mechanism to remove this air on an internal-bladder pressure tank set-up.

which is exactly what's happening in my situation, a lot of air coming out of the faucets.

But back to my questions before we got side tracked with letting air out of my old tank.

Can a CSV be incorporated with a hydro-pneumatic tank?

Referencing the 3rd paragraph above about my POS bladder tank that the plumber installed without a clue I had bleeders is at issue here causing the excess air, how does the tank holds pressure without a check valve?

Guess I might tackle a new tank myself though I'd prefer a pro if I can't get anyone out here.
 

Valveman

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You could have the extra check valve in the well above the bleeder as in the video. Most control check valves are above ground, but not all. With the check valve only a foot or so above the bleeder(s) in this video, you only get a very small 1' shot of air in the tank when the pump turns on. Usually the bleeder and check valve are 5-10' apart, so you get 5-10' charge of air each time the pump starts. This video also shows the pressure switch mounted on the top of the pressure tank where the air is located. The diaphragm in a pressure switch will let air out of the system. I doubt that the small shot of air from this system will keep up with the air lost from the pressure switch. I would have put the check valve 5' or so above the bleeder, and would have put the pressure switch on the water line so it couldn't release the air from the tank.

As to your question about using a CSV with an air maker system and a galvanized type tank, it would not work on that particular system. For one thing the rubber bleeders will blow out from the back pressure from the CSV. For another thing the CSV reduces the cycling so much that the little 1' shot of air will not be enough to keep the tank charged with air.

You can use a CSV with a bleeder type system. You just need the brass bleeder to handle the back pressure from the CSV. And you would need more distance between the bleeder and check valve, so that when the pump does cycle, it will put twice as much air in the tank as the old style system.
 

Reach4

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A tank with an AVC is also available in fiberglass, although it probably costs more.
Wellmate HP I think includes the AVC, and Flex-lite FLS has the AVC as an add-on.
 

Ed Jaws

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Again thanks guys for your info.

Valveman,

I'm not saying I have the exact well piping bleeders as show in the video but it stands to reason I do have some kind of drain back valve in the pipe going down to the pump and a check valve up near the top of the well pipe above the drain back valve would still hold water in my, most likely above frost line, pipe going to the house. By the amount of air I would have to bleed out of the old galvanized tank at regular intervals I'd guess it's as you say, more likely 5' to 10' of air.

Thanks for the info on the CSV.

Reach4,

Well now :). It looks like a Wellmate HP would be a near drop in install except removing the Tee above the pressure switch and installing a connector and eliminating the horizontal section that came off the Tee. That is if the quick connect are sized the same. Looks like I'd have to Tee at the bottom and run a line up to the copper pipe. That is if I can get that tank retail somewhere. The search is on.
Thanks man.

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Craigpump

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Not to be critical of your plumber, but if we see a standard tank that needs to be replaced we replace it with a standard tank because you never know.....

Also, stay away from tanks that use a verticle AVC, they tend to load up with iron and stick, plus you need additional headroom to change it.
 

Ed Jaws

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if we see a standard tank that needs to be replaced we replace it with a standard tank because you never know.....

...and I didn't hesitate to give the okay to replace the tank but he replaced a hydro-pneumatic with a bladder tank unaware of the consequences that it was the wrong style tank.

stay away from tanks that use a verticle AVC, they tend to load up with iron and stick, plus you need additional headroom to change it.

Oh boy, just what I didn't need to hear, but thanks for the info.
 

Craigpump

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Just telling what I see in the field. An FLS series tank may be more difficult to install, but the ease of changing the AVC makes it a good trade off.
 
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