Wondering about my well seal

[DesertEaglePt50]

Hello all,
I have a small crack in the elbow right above the well seal. The leak has been going long enough to deteriorate a quarter sized part of the well casing. I am trying to learn how the well seal and elbow can be replaced without losing A pipe down the well. The pipe is polyethylene and I will need to pound down on it in order to seat the new elbow fitting.

Relevant info:
-Goulds J5 half horsepower convertible jet pump with dual drop 1 inch and one and a quarter inch polyethylene pipe.
- well casing has an OD of 7 inches.
- well seal is one piece with 4 bolts and an approximately half inch galvanized nipple sticking up and the holes for the polyethylene pipes

Thanks for your help.

 

[Craigpump]

Post a picture

 

[Sponsor]

 

[DesertEaglePt50]

Post a picture

Update. I replace the cracked elbow fitting in the polyethylene pipe and took some photos. I am still wondering how the well seal is removed without losing anything down the well.

 

[Smooky]

You would have to disconnect the horizontal pipes, loosen the seal bolts, and lift the seal with the down pipes and elbows still attached.

 

[Valveman]

The well seal is what holds everything and keeps the pipes from falling down the well.

 

[DesertEaglePt50]

Once I start raising the pipes how can I temporarily lock them in place if needed? The static water level is estimated at 25-90 feet based on the pump specs.

What information do I need to provide to order a new seal?

Thanks for the responses.

 

[Valveman]

When you loosen the bolts and get the well seal knocked loose, the pipes will come up with the well seal. Just don't take the elbows or hose clamps off the pipe as that is what keeps the pipe from slipping through the well seal. The pipes are not going to be very heavy, but it looks like the well seal will be hard to pull loose as it is very rusted.

 

[Reach4]

What information do I need to provide to order a new seal?

If that well seal is in a pit, and if you would want to consider doing it right, you might consider having the casing extended above ground by welding, and a pitless installed. While you can get a pitless for the deep well jet pump, you could also consider upgrading to a submersible pump.

Has your pit ever flooded? You could set an aspirin on a saucer on the pit floor to find out if it does in the future.

 

[DesertEaglePt50]

If that well seal is in a pit, and if you would want to consider doing it right, you might consider having the casing extended above ground by welding, and a pitless installed. While you can get a pitless for the deep well jet pump, you could also consider upgrading to a submersible pump.

Has your pit ever flooded? You could set an aspirin on a saucer on the pit floor to find out if it does in the future.

Pit? If I had to answer yes or no, I would say yes but only because if one does not have a pitless adapter, then one must have a pit. Right?
It would probably be more helpful to those in the know to just describe the setup. It is more of a well bunker. It is attached to the house above ground and solid concrete on all sides and the top, including the access hatch. To the best of my knowledge it has never flooded. The house is on a hill and there is a storm grate nearby. The well seal is above grade but not by much.

 

[Reach4]

Pit? If I had to answer yes or no, I would say yes but only because if one does not have a pitless adapter, then one must have a pit. Right?

No. Based on your pictures, it seemed very probable that was a pit. It is unlikely that you could have had leaves in your basement. The casing could have been outdoors because while you are in Kansas, the photos could have been an outsid concrete slab in a non-freezing area for your second home or at your sister's home.

But your description is what is commonly called a well pit. It is designed to allow access while keeping the water below the frost line. The problem is that these leak. I had a pit. I got it demolished, the 4 inch steel casing extended, and a pitless installed (called a pitless adapter because it eliminates the need for a pit). My pump is submersible. I had my 3.75 inch diameter submersible, which had been installed about 11.6 years earlier, put back down the hole, tho the well guy recommended that I replace it with a new "3 inch" pump. A "3 inch" pump allows for more imperfections on the inside of the 4 inch ID casing. I am still a little skeptical of the electronics, that the 3 inch pumps contain, down the hole, but they are probably pretty good by now. You don't hear about the large number of failures that you hear about with, for example, tankless water heaters. Of course I don't know the relative numbers in service.

 

[DesertEaglePt50]

I am Not exactly surprised to hear that the well pit set up could be better. It's not exactly fun getting a 1 foot thick concrete hatch door off and moved over.
I would still like to know about replacing the seal on the existing casing. I may very well extend the casing but I do not even know what specs I need to provide to order a well seal. The extensive rust was caused by leaks at cracks in the elbows. Although I caught the leak in the pressure line fairly early, the leak in the suction line occurred four years earlier and got so bad you could hear the water gushing inside of the well pit with the lid on.

 

[Reach4]

Specs. I

well casing has an OD of 7 inches.

6.625 would be a common OD, but there are others. http://www.bluesteelservices.com/waterwell.php

I may very well extend the casing but I do not even know what specs I need to provide to order a well seal.

• You need the ID of the casing, and you start with the OD carefully measured. To measure the OD, you might be better to measure the circumference and divide by pi to get the OD.
• The number and type of holes. You would need one with two big holes and a smaller 1/2 NTP threaded hole for the vent.
• Split or not? Not-split is stronger
• Steel, cast iron, or plastic? Since your seal is not carrying a lot of weight, you could probably choose any material.

https://www.merrillmfg.com/product/order-numbers-cast-iron-well-seals in the bottom list shows some cast iron well seals. https://www.merrillmfg.com/product/order-numbers-plastic-well-seals shows plastic well seals. http://www.simmonsmfg.com/index.php/our-products/well-seals/ shows their offerings Those are a good brands, but there are others.

If you put in a new seal, you would be better off to replace the fittings just above the seal with brass. They are stronger. It is those fittings that carry the weight.

If you extend the casing, you use something called a well cap at the top of the casing rather than a well seal. The sealing goes on at the pitless.

 

[DesertEaglePt50]

Specs. I

6.625 would be a common OD, but there are others. http://www.bluesteelservices.com/waterwell.php

• You need the ID of the casing, and you start with the OD carefully measured. To measure the OD, you might be better to measure the circumference and divide by pi to get the OD.
• The number and type of holes. You would need one with two big holes and a smaller 1/2 NTP threaded hole for the vent.
• Split or not? Not-split is stronger
• Steel, cast iron, or plastic? Since your seal is not carrying a lot of weight, you could probably choose any material.

https://www.merrillmfg.com/product/order-numbers-cast-iron-well-seals in the bottom list shows some cast iron well seals. https://www.merrillmfg.com/product/order-numbers-plastic-well-seals shows plastic well seals. http://www.simmonsmfg.com/index.php/our-products/well-seals/ shows their offerings Those are a good brands, but there are others.

If you put in a new seal, you would be better off to replace the fittings just above the seal with brass. They are stronger. It is those fittings that carry the weight.

If you extend the casing, you use something called a well cap at the top of the casing rather than a well seal. The sealing goes on at the pitless.

I was hoping that well casings were standardized so I would know what I needed ahead of time. But if I need to measure the I.D., I would have to remove the well seal anyway, so I might as well take the old seal with me to a plumbing supply house.

 

[Reach4]

Take a measuring tape, and wrap it around the pipe between the seal and the floor. You may not be able to see the readings if you use a steel tape, but you could mark the back side of the tape with a marker, and then check the markings after you have the tape above ground.

If you used a string to measure and marked the string, you could then measure the marks on the string. Make sure that you hold the string at the same tension in each action.

 

[Craigpump]

That looks like 6" casing.

We take these apart all the freaking time! Sometimes the bolts loosen right up, sometimes they don't. Here's how I would do this. Work on the side that has the vent pipe.

1) locate the parting line between the upper top pieces, try to loosen the bolts, if one breaks, STOP
2) grind or torch off the bolt head on the other bolt on the same side of the parting line
3) using a drift & hammer, drive down on the bolt you just cut the head off of so the rust loosens up. Sometimes dumping a can of Coke on it and letting it sit overnight will loosen things up.
4) using a pry bar and hammer, drive the bar between the flange on the seal and casing to and work the bar to loosen the top. Once its loose, pry that piece out and put a pair of vise grips on the bolt that you cut the head off of. This will prevent dropping the bottom piece down the well. You can also work the vent pipe to help loosen the plate.
5) a lot of times you can work the seal at this point and pull it out of the casing. If not, do the same thing on the other side.

These can be a real PITA, so do don't be surprised if it takes a few hours.... You may want to call in someone to do this.

 

[DesertEaglePt50]

Take a measuring tape, and wrap it around the pipe between the seal and the floor. You may not be able to see the readings if you use a steel tape, but you could mark the back side of the tape with a marker, and then check the markings after you have the tape above ground.

If you used a string to measure and marked the string, you could then measure the marks on the string. Make sure that you hold the string at the same tension in each action.

When I measured a 7 inch OD, I measured the seal and not the casing. If I understand your previous post, even if I measure the casing OD correctly, I still can't get a new well seal without measuring the casing ID. Right?

 

[DesertEaglePt50]

That looks like 6" casing.

We take these apart all the freaking time! Sometimes the bolts loosen right up, sometimes they don't. Here's how I would do this. Work on the side that has the vent pipe.

1) locate the parting line between the upper top pieces, try to loosen the bolts, if one breaks, STOP
2) grind or torch off the bolt head on the other bolt on the same side of the parting line
3) using a drift & hammer, drive down on the bolt you just cut the head off of so the rust loosens up. Sometimes dumping a can of Coke on it and letting it sit overnight will loosen things up.
4) using a pry bar and hammer, drive the bar between the flange on the seal and casing to and work the bar to loosen the top. Once its loose, pry that piece out and put a pair of vise grips on the bolt that you cut the head off of. This will prevent dropping the bottom piece down the well. You can also work the vent pipe to help loosen the plate.
5) a lot of times you can work the seal at this point and pull it out of the casing. If not, do the same thing on the other side.

These can be a real PITA, so do don't be surprised if it takes a few hours.... You may want to call in someone to do this.

Thanks for detailing the process. Coke is a good idea, I was thinking the well might mind if I hit it with some wd-40.

 

[Craigpump]

The top flange diameter on a tightened 6" well seal will be right at 7".

All 6" casing, whether it's 13, 15, 17 or 19 pound is 6.625 outside diameter and here in the northeast anyway it's called 6" regardless of the wall thickness or weight per foot.

 

[Craigpump]

NEVER used wd 40, PB blaster or any other petroleum base product near your water well.

 

[DesertEaglePt50]

That looks like 6" casing.

We take these apart all the freaking time! Sometimes the bolts loosen right up, sometimes they don't. Here's how I would do this. Work on the side that has the vent pipe.

1) locate the parting line between the upper top pieces, try to loosen the bolts, if one breaks, STOP
2) grind or torch off the bolt head on the other bolt on the same side of the parting line
3) using a drift & hammer, drive down on the bolt you just cut the head off of so the rust loosens up. Sometimes dumping a can of Coke on it and letting it sit overnight will loosen things up.
4) using a pry bar and hammer, drive the bar between the flange on the seal and casing to and work the bar to loosen the top. Once its loose, pry that piece out and put a pair of vise grips on the bolt that you cut the head off of. This will prevent dropping the bottom piece down the well. You can also work the vent pipe to help loosen the plate.
5) a lot of times you can work the seal at this point and pull it out of the casing. If not, do the same thing on the other side.

These can be a real PITA, so do don't be surprised if it takes a few hours.... You may want to call in someone to do this.

Let's say I am able to separate the seal and the casing. If I remove the elbows, then the seal can be lifted off and a new one pushed down, and the assembly lowered back onto the casing and tightened, yes? Obviously, another set of hands will be required, and I would like a backup means to suspend the pipes above the well just in case. Are there clamps that can be purchased or should I just make two appropriately sized holes in a board, then cut the board so as to bisect both holes and use wood clamps to clamp the board around the poly pipes?

I really appreciate all the help I have received. I don't want to attempt a diy unless I believe I can complete it. I am thinking that whether I can do the job will depend on whether I can separate the well seal and casing, and if not I can bring in a pro at that point.