Well problem

[Angelina]

I have a question and my husband is not here so I will explain the best way that I can....We live in a house that is 44 years old....We have a well and do not know for sure where the location is,,,We have an idea but nothing in the yard sticks out...Anyway, for the past couple months ,every time we flush the toilet or run the sink water for a short time, The pressure tank would fill up .....I timed it once when we use the shower and it was kicking on every 2 minutes.....There is a main outlet thing in the corner of our basement where the water comes in....That is what I mean as to what was kicking off and on...Anyways, when you would flush etc and this thing kicked on, the water pressure gage would go up and then go back down to around 40.....Well finally about a few days ago, I noticed this thing was kicking on even when no water was being used.....My husband said that it was probably needing a new pressure tank so we turned off everything last nite...Well this morning when we got up and turned it on, the water pressure was close till nill and the old pressure tank gage would only go up to about 20...Then upstairs in one of the bathrooms, after you would flush the toilet, the pipes kept sounding like they were going to burst.....He did put in a new pressure tank and even after we hooked that up, that stupid thing that I mentioned earlier, that hose like thing where the waters comes in from outside to the house, kept running,,,,,,,,,,The new pressure tank did not fill up with water,,when we flush now, the gage only goes up to about 10-20 and then drops to 0, the water sounds like it is going back up from where it came...My husband has only called one place so far and they are saying it is possibly the check valve and gave an estimate of about $2000.00.......Please shed some light on this for me and are we being had...Thanks s much!!

 

[Bob NH]

Some questions to help us help you.

We need to know what kind of pump you have. Is the pump located where the water comes into the house? Or do you have only a pipe coming into the house?

If you can't find a pump, but have only a pipe, it is probably a submersible pump located in the well. If it is a submersible, there should be wires or a cable with internal wires running out along the pipe. If it is a submersible, there MAY be a metal box between the circuit breaker panel and the wire going out along the pipe. If there is a box, tell us what it says on the box.

If the pump is where you can see it, it is probably a jet pump. There are two kinds of jet pumps. A shallow well jet pump has one pipe coming through the wall to the end of the pump, and one pipe coming out of the pump to the pressure tank. If there are two pipes coming out of the pump and going out of the house, it is probably a deep well jet pump.

It is possible that a jet pump could be located in a little "well hut" somewhere remote from the house, but that is very unlikely. How far is it to your property line, so we might have some idea of the maximum distance to the well. The well is probably on the side of the house near where the pipe comes in. Do you know anyone with a metal detector? How cold does it get there? to give some idea how deep the pipe might be.

If you have a deep well jet pump you might want to replace it with a submersible if your well is large enough. I won't discuss the reasons unless you find that you have a deep well jet.

If you find a pump, or anything suggesting that it is a submersible pump, tell us what you find out. The make and model number would be helpful. The horsepower (stamped on a label on the motor). If the box for a submersible is there, tell us what the markings are on the box.

$2000 is a lot to check out a check valve, but you need water, and it's a weekend.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Angelina]

I found a box

There is a box and on the front it says RapidDayton. The model # is A33K48, The ser # is H 62, It says 1/3 HP, then it says like this, 104 127 Volts, 60 cycle, 3450 RPM....And then it says a division of Tait Manu. Corp. In Dayton, ohio

 

[Angelina]

Also, there is a pump located straight across from where the pump line comes in, it is about 12-15 feet across in my basement...It is next to our water softerner and the hose where the washer water comes out....That is working fine,,,,,Also I forgot to mention that the water is a nasty brown after we flush....I have the pump turned off and only kick the switch on when we have to flush the toilet until this is taken care of..Is that okay? I have somewhere t o take a shower but if you have to use the toilet at 3:00 AM, this helps a lot...

 

[Bob NH]

Getting Curiouser and Curiouser

The only Google result that I found for RapidDayton is for antique gas pumps.

Is it possible that the spelling is Tate rather than Tait? There is a Tate company that distributes several brands of pumps and they might put their tag on other suppliers equipment.

There is a reference to Tait Irrimatic pumps in a directory of irrigation providers prepared by Penn State University, but no address for Tait pumps. And no commercial references were found. The only Tait returned for Dayton, Ohio is Frank M Tait Foundation.

How many wires go out of the Tait box and where do they go?

Let's figure out that pump you have in the basement. What are the make, model, and horsepower? Does it look like a shallow well jet as I described in my first post? One inlet pipe coming in the end and another pipe (the outlet) going out the top or side of the pump? Where does the inlet (end) pipe come from? Does the outlet pipe from that pump (the one with the pressure gauge connection) go to the tank?

Where does the pipe coming from the wall connect? Are there wires with that pipe? Does it connect to the inlet side of the pump in the basement or directly to the tank?

I'll be on line this evening so send back when you get more information. Someone else may have some ideas.

 

[Angelina]

More info

I opened the box and it does say Tait, a division of Tait Manufacturing, it gave an address as 500 Webster Street, In Dayton, Ohio.......I live in Columbus,..There are wires ..There is a medium thick silver gray one, it goes to the one side of the pressure switch, I believe that is what is called...Another one just like it comes out the other side and travels up and under the floor board beams, and leads to the main breaker box.....When I open this Tait Box, there are 5 connectors there. this silver gray wire has two ends, one white and one black, that hooks to 2 of this connector..

Also from the left side of this Tait box, there are 3 wires, not really thin but thinner than the silver gray one, they kind of braid like and are red, a mustard yellow and I think a black one...This also connects to 3 connectors when I open the Tait box...This then lead into the basement wall, where the H20 from the well comes in...

The whole about 12-15 feet directly across from it has a sump pump that says Water Ace, WA pump company, 1/3 HP, 5.7 amps, 115 Vac....on the motor part it has this on it: R39-24800D500 and R3P1-24690A000...there is a picture of a box on the front of the R3P1---But it looks as the box in front of the R39 was punched out...I think to designate that this is the one we have..

The whole with the sump pump is about 23 -25 inches deep..I stuck something in it to see how deep it is ...I am only 5 feet tall, and the thing I measured it with comes to a little above my knee,,,There is a hole on the side,,I do know that when we get a lot of rain, the excess comes thru this....

There is also a black hose that leads to this hole too,,This drains out the water from my washer.....The last pipe is kind of hard to describes....Think of the letter L and flip it over...The smaller part is attached to the back wall, that faces the septic tank....the longer part , from where it starts to bend and at the basement floor is at least as tall as me, 5 foot, then the rest goes into the hole, into the 23 inches where I measured..Hope this helps!!! Thanks so much.....I think I might have confused you..The gage is below the pressurer switch..all on that same figuration

I also failed to give you more info about the pipes coming from where the well water comes in....There are 2..One again is like an L, the smaller part goes to the wall and the other part goes straight down to a small pipe that connects on one end to the pressure tank and other goes to what I believe is the main water line....Again, it travels along the baseboard--floor beams from above and disappear into the crawl space , where the other pipes to the shower go,,,,Also our water softener hooks to what appears to be the main water line......Also from the pipe that connects to the pressure tank , there is a piece that sticks up and holds the pressure switch and the gage......The other pipe thing that comes from the wall where the H20 comes in , is also like a small L but this one has the longer part going into the wall and the smaller part sticks straight up..attached to nothing,,,When I turn the well pump on from the main breakers, it sounds like air is coming out, like a tire losing air,.........It is silent when you cover that open part up

 

[Bob NH]

You have a submersible pump

The Tait box looks like a submersible pump control. In addition to the wires there are probably a couple of electrical components. One of them should be a relay and one should be a capacitor. There is probably a second capacitor and there may be an overload switch/button and perhaps a lightning arrester.

If the box has that stuff in it, then you have a "three-wire" pump. If it has only wire connections, then it is just a junction box, but it sounds like a control box.

I suspect that it is an older installation because in new installations there is usually a fourth wire to the pump; a green one, for a ground.

The other pump is a sump pump and should have nothing to do with your water system.

Now to fixing the problem. It sounds like you may have a broken pipe if the pump won't bring the tank up to pressure. A failed check valve will allow it to flow back but won't affect the filling. But a split pipe (that black plastic thing is polyethylene pipe that usually runs from the pump to the tank) would prevent the pump from filling the tank to pressure if it is a large leak. A small leak would act a lot like a failed check valve. There is USUALLY a check valve in the pump, but not always, especially in older installlations where tanks without bladders were used. Is there a check valve in the basement? Sometimes there are check valves above AND in the pump.

So you need to do a test. Will the pump pressurize the tank? How long does it take to fill the tank? What are cut-in and cut-out pressures for the pressure switch? Is your new tank a bladder tank, and if so, was it charged with air? If not a bladder tank, was it charged with air after you hooked it up?

If it won't fill the tank at all then you have a failed pipe or a failed pump.

If it fills the tank to where the pressure switch shuts off, and then drops even when no water is being used, you probably have a check valve failure or a small pipe leak.

You can probably solve the probelm temporarily by putting a check valve in the basement. Home Depot sells them.

If you have a pipe leak or a pump failure, you need to pull the pump. That is where you need to decide if you are up to the job or call the well man. If you are going to pay for the job you should get a well expert rather than a house plumber who also does pumps when called upon. He/she will have equipment to deal with the well and may know where it is.

Enough for this post. I will be up at least until the Miami/Ga Tech game is over.

 

[Angelina]

The new tank we got is a Flotech and is precharged...I did the test like you said.............I turned it on from the main breakers and the gage went from 0 to 30...Still not filling the new tank....That smaller pipe that sticks out and straight up..has a small amount of air that blows when the switch is on .....I flushed the toilet and again, it sounded like the pipes were banging a lot...When I turned the switch off, that sound of water going thru the pipes by the new pressure tank and going into the wall, went on for a few minutes then stopped ...Thanks for your help and patience!

 

[Bob NH]

"Small pipe" and air?

Is the "small pipe" you refer to like the stem on your tires? That should not be leaking air, and I can't think of anything else that should be leaking air. If it is leaking then you will never be able to hold the precharge.

If it is the "tire valve" that is leaking air (It's called a Schrader valve), then the core is probably loose or missing. You probably don't have a tool for tightening it. They used to make valve stem caps with an end to remove or tighten the core but I haven't seen one in years. You might be able to tighten it with a pair of very fine pliers, or take a "bobby pin" (the one that is bent tightly and with flat wires) and cut the rounded ends off and see if you can stick the ends into the valve and tighten with your fingers. If that works, then tighten with pliers, and then charge the tank to about 18 psi with a compressor.

Because you are unable to fill the tank to 40 psi, I suspect a pump or pipe failure. Now you have a choice of calling the well man or trying it yourself. If you do it yourself, you need to find the well first. If you call a well man, then I suggest that you get a price for getting him to investigate and pull the pump, and repair or replace the pipe if necessary, or fix the check valve. Negotiate separately for a new pump. The $2000 price sounds high for what is probably a 4 hour job. You could try it yourself if you can stand being without water, or ask neighbors what they know about it.

Do you have any idea how deep you pump is set in the well? Ask your neighbors. They are probably getting water from the same aquifer. One of them may have seen a pump replacement or done it himself.

If it were my house, I would start by finding the well and digging down to find the casing to see what must be done to get at the pump. On the other hand, maybe the well man will think of something that I didn't and save you some digging. I'm not totally comfortable with remote diagnosis when someone else has to deal with the consequences if I am wrong. It is too easy to miss something that I would see if I were looking at it.

Look at this site to see what you might have under the ground.
http://www.do-it-yourself-pumps.com/you-can-install-a-pump-system.htm

 

[Speedbump]

The Tait Pump Co. Was bought by Berkley pumps who was owned by Trans American Delaval 15 years ago who was bought by Sta-Rite who was just recently bought out by Pentair, which now owns half the world.

The simple fact that the date code was I believe you said 62 as in 1962 tells me there is a good chance the pump is shot. It could be bad pipes also like Bob said. I mean pumps today last around 7 years.

You could have made a better choice on a tank also.

I believe your best advice is to call another well driller/pump man in the area who doesn't give estimates over the phone and let them have a look. I think you will find a new pump, wire and possibly pipes in the well will have to be replaced.

After 40 some years, that pump doesn't owe anyone a cent.

bob...