Water softener size

[LeGu]

Hello!

Please help to choose right size for a water softener.

Info:
- well water
- 18 gpg hardness
- 0.7 iron
- 3/4" main water supply
- 1 bath, washer, dishwaher
- 4 people in the home. I do not know exact daily water usage but do not think it is higher than "standard" average

The guy from the water softener firm, who tested our water, recommended 1.3 cu.ft unit with 40000 grains.
Here is its efficiency parameters:
Max: 40060 @19.8 lbs
Mid: 34515 @15.4 lbs
Min: 26190 @13.2 lbs

I did some research in the internet regarding softener sizing and it feels that this unit will be too small. The next size up unit from that company also looks more efficient if it's set to a minimum setting. But the guy said that minimum setting won't work well because of the iron and that they always set units to the mid setting.
2.0 cu. ft.
Max: 60896 @30 lbs
Mid: 52024 @20 lbs
Min: 38704 @10 lbs

Truly speaking I do not understand why minimum setting on a bigger unit which regenerates more grains than mid setting on a smaller one won't work. But I know nothing about water softeners.

So is it true that minimum setting should not be used?

What will be the right size in my situation?

Thanks a lot for your time and help!

- Leo

 

[ditttohead]

The problem is your iron. Treating iron with a softener creates efficiency and logenvity challenges. Your local guy should have a good understanding of it... should...

When treating iron with a softener, frequent regenerations with higher salting can greatly extend the resin life and reduce maintenance. Running it at high efficiency and a larger system may cause the iron to bind to the resin in a way that makes it difficult to keep clean.

Since you are on a well, we really need a full water report to make a real suggestion. pH is a very important factor when determining if a softener is a good candidate for iron reduction. Low pH can make treatment with a softener easy as the iron will be fairly easy to remove from the resin during regeneration. Other factors that can help us assist you with a system type can be seen from a detailed water report.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[LeGu]

The problem is your iron. Treating iron with a softener creates efficiency and logenvity challenges. Your local guy should have a good understanding of it... should...

When treating iron with a softener, frequent regenerations with higher salting can greatly extend the resin life and reduce maintenance. Running it at high efficiency and a larger system may cause the iron to bind to the resin in a way that makes it difficult to keep clean.

Since you are on a well, we really need a full water report to make a real suggestion. pH is a very important factor when determining if a softener is a good candidate for iron reduction. Low pH can make treatment with a softener easy as the iron will be fairly easy to remove from the resin during regeneration. Other factors that can help us assist you with a system type can be seen from a detailed water report.

Thanks for the reply. It makes sense for me now.

Unfortunately I do not have data about pH. But the guy ran water thru his mini-softener and the result showed 0 iron.

- Leo

 

[ditttohead]

Softeners will remove iron, the problem is that the efficiency of a softener has to be set lower and resin fouling can occur. Regular resin cleaning can lessen this issue but high pH can be difficult as it can cause the iron to bond to the resin making removal during regeneration difficult. A chemical drip feeder in the brine tank can help as will regular cleaning with citric acid.

 

[Treeman]

Hello LeGu!

I just went through this process of water softener education. dittohead is a class act expert that will help you greatly. I started learning about softeners back in December and just pulled the plug two weeks ago on a new unit. My water is 26gpg hardness, 1ppm iron, 7.2+/- ph.

Here is my experience:

There are two camps regarding iron removal with a softener. Some recommend "almost" never using a softener for iron removal, with excellent reasoning for using a separate iron filter before the softener. Others recommend that iron removal with a softener is feasible with some important caveats: success depends on ALL of the water characteristics (PH, Manganese, etc.), Iron removal over 2ppm becomes iffy, added maintenance is required (resin cleaner - iron out, Res-care, citric acid, etc.), more frequent regeneration times are required, and finally....dittohead can provide white papers that show that 6lbs.salt/cu. ft. resin does NOT handle iron as well as higher rates (Chubb??).

Follow his advice to get a complete water analysis.

My previous softener worked well for over 15 years set at 8lbs. salt/cu. ft. (still fairly efficient). Some say that with iron, you should regenerate as few as every 4 days, others suggest up to 8 days (to alleviate resin iron fouling). Under MY conditions, I had good luck at 6-7 days.

I settled on the 1.25 cu. ft resin softener with only 2 people in a 1 bath small household, and it has been regenerating about every 6 days +/- ......perfect. I set the over ride to recharge at 7 days if we have light use.

Go to some of the sizing calculators and plug in different numbers......4 people at 60 gals/day vs. 70 gallons per day, etc.. 1.25 cu. ft. vs. 1.5 cu. ft. vs. 2.0....... I made a spread sheet that compared both salt efficiency AND water efficiency (using published gals. H2O per regeneration of various sized softeners). It was very interesting and geeky to tweek this out. I could reach about the same efficiencies at 8lbs. salt with the correct sized softener vs. 6 lbs. with a smaller (more frequent regens) unit.

After all of my research, I , too decided that one should go higher than 6 lbs. salt/cu. ft. if removing iron.

Just my experience........I have about 20 bookmarks regarding this stuff. PM me if you want me to share the better ones.

 

[LeGu]

Hi Treeman,

We have very old softener that came with the house. It's smaller (27000 grains) and worked pretty well. But recently we had to replace the well pump and started to get lots of rust stains after that. I tried calculators with different numbers and it feels that 1.3 with 40000 grains is a little small.

- Leo

 

[Treeman]

The numbers you toss out seem incorrect and indicate that you haven't gotten up to speed on matters of efficiency,Service Factor Rate, sizing, iron removal, and on and on. Do a search here of softener sizing......the same "rules of thumb" have been repeated ad nauseum (Pardon my frankness).

Here's my initial, incomplete sizing: 4 people x 65 gal. H2O per day (60 -75 average) x 22 grains total hardness+/- 1 = 5720 grains per day

A 1.5 cu. ft. softener at 8 lbs./ cu ft. (12 lbs. total) = 35, 800 +/- grains of capacity.

35,800 / 5720 = 6.3 days regeneration or 35800 / 22 = 1627 gallons of softened H2O divided by 260 gal. H2O (4 x 65) = 6.3 days

Depending on your water test results, this gets you in the neighborhood. Try this with 60 or 75 gallons per person per day. Try it with 21 or 23 total grains hardness. Decide if you want 4,5,6, 7 or 8 day regeneration cycles.........are you going to use 6, 8, 10, or more lbs. salt/cu. ft........?

dittohead is reluctant (smart) to do what I just did (a guesstimate) because he knows that your full water test might indicate other needs. I imagine that softener sizing and system development is similar to furnace system choice and sizing. You are trying to hit that sweet spot of performance, value, and efficiency.

I found the "Gary Slusser/Aquatel" alternative sizing methodology pdf VERY educational: http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/index.html BUT, use it in addition to the calculations above and NOT as the gospel.

This calculator is fun: https://www.apswater.com/softener-info.asp?widthin=10&heightin=42&hard=30

BUT, it uses 80 gal. per person per day. Plug a tank size in to get the standard 1.25, 1.5, and 2.0 cu. ft. softener calculations. Plug in your total hardness and compare results.

 

[LeGu]

What should be in the water test besides pH, iron and hardness?

 

[Reach4]

manganese, arsenic, corrosivity, lead, sodium.... Usually calcium and magnesium are included, but they are the main contributors to hardness.

Some tests test for a lot more. Your list had the main ones.

If there are symptoms or suspicions, you would add tannins, hydrocarbons, pesticides, maybe more, but for common well water treatment, you don't usually test for those.

 

[LeGu]

My only goal for now is to solve the issue with water hardness and iron. We do not use our water for drinking or cooking. I'm not looking for filtration systems and hope that proper sized water softener can solve these issues.

 

[Reach4]

My only goal for now is to solve the issue with water hardness and iron. We do not use our water for drinking or cooking. I'm not looking for filtration systems and hope that proper sized water softener can solve these issues.

I infer that you don't get a "sulfur" smell.

So get your 2 cuft softener. Play with the settings to see what it takes. Start pessimistic. Use rescare feeder and/or iron handling salt. When you need cleaning later, I would use Super Iron Out. Some routinely add it to the brine tank.

Leave space in the basement to add an iron treatment backwashing filter in front of the softener.
Do put in a cartridge filter (I like the 20x4.5 Pentek Big Blue). That will keep sediment out of your softener and WH and etc.

Do sanitize your well and plumbing. Expose your softener resin to only a limited amount of chlorine in the process, but do a great job on the well and pipes and WH. During the softener start-up, you normally add a small amount of bleach with water to the resin anyway as a sanitizing treatment. (1.2 ounces of 5.25% per cubic ft of resin is good). I take my softner out of bypass for a bit and run water through the existing softener, once I am in the flushing stage and the chlorine has fallen enough.

A fairly comprehensive water test does not need to be expensive.

 

[ditttohead]

Considering you will be bathing in the water, breathing the mist from it in the shower etc... a comprehensive test is real cheap insurance and good peace of mind. NTL LAbs has typically been a good company. I have only had one issue with them and I will see how they resolve it next week. Assuming they do what is right, they will be even more recommended by me. If they do not correct this recent issue... I will be looking for a new company to recommend. I have a second company that I recommend to some customers and they have dealt with this issue that came up above and beyond my expectations. I will likely start recommending them. The reason for NTL labs is their report is easily understood by anyone. Most lab reports are not very intuitive.
A typical test should be done annually, but even every few years so long as your basic testing shows no major changes is adequate. A test should run about $200 including Overnight shipping etc.

 

[LeGu]

I have recently tested water for bacteria, nitrate and arsenic. Arsenic is 11.5 but we do not drink this water.

 

[ditttohead]

limit is 10 ppb, the old standard was 50 ppb. That low of a level should be fine.