The Pit Falls of following manufactures recommendations

[JohnfrWhipple]

Anyone read this discussion on the John Bridge Forum? http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=112467

What's your take on the chit chat? I emailed the fellow who is struggling and offered up some Mapei Band no charge (except shipping). But after reading the four pages of notes the one guy who I think is the true tile man in the house is LT. He brings up one important fact that was missed by all. What fact or point is that men?

After reading this discussion I hope the "Pretend Builders" out there take their comments like "It's not required" "Follow Manufactures Specifications" and they shove that kind of chatter up their back sides....

I would bet that $6.00 worth of silicone and $25.00 worth of waterproofing fleece (for liquids) and this shower would still be working today. Instead of leaking out the neighbouring closet.

I have a new client in Utah right now. The man is a brain-e-act and I had the pleasure of talking too him twice the othe day for almost 2.5 hours. He called me and chalked up my fees (yes I do charge for the private phone calls) as Risk management. I like that. So when an installer is given a choice between two approved approaches (one with fabric - One without) what should he or she do? Consider the risk.

Now had the installer considered this two years back he could have worked out the risk. When the product goes South it becomes and Issue. No longer a risk.


I quit using liquid waterproofing almost two full years ago now. I quit because of blistering issues during extended flood tests. If I use liquids again (not likely but I might) I will follow the Aussy method. One week cure time. Silicone bond break in change of planes. Capillary breaks. And those pushing "Manufuctures Recommendations" on us..... Well.....

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

More Pit Falls

Now we have another failed flood test show cased here - https://terrylove.com/forums/showth...level-drop-in-a-Kerdi-Shower-flood-test/page8

This fellow followed every instruction I'm sure to a T. So why did the shower flood test fail? Capillary Action - that's why. So evident in the photo's of water's ability to wick. In Australia they address this issue - does water act different down South? Their toilets and sinks swirl the opposite way but surely the effects of capillary action are the same.

So what is the risk of following manufactures specifications? Well how about a failed flood test. Or maybe a failed shower build. What issues does this bring up... Lots.

If we know capillary action exists. If we know that thin-set and some waterproofing products can wick water. Why then is the issues not covered in manufactures specifications and installation guidelines? I would like the know the answer to this.

Why

Why

Why

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Jadnashua]

To wick, there has to be more water than the surface can absorb in that one location...capillary action is the result of the affinity of water molecules to stick together (evident by a rain drop or a bead of water on your recently waxed vehicle) and one, plling the adjacent one along with it. Gravity will eventually balance that affinity, and stop it. On a traditional shower with a cbu, I've heard of it wicking up maybe in the order of 10" or so if the pan is not built right and there's standing water there (common issue if the liner is flat or the weep holes are plugged). Some are better at this than others and some don't wick as much. On a surface membrane, once you cover it with tile, there's two things that restrict wicking (not stop it entirely): the fleece in the membrane when installed properly has spaces that are too small for liquid water to pass by freely, and second, the thinset itself is at least somewhat resistant to water flow through it. Then, take into account that the more common tile in a shower is porcelain, which is almost as impervious as glass covers the vast majority of the shower, and the grout, almost all is modified, and that helps restrict how much moisture can get through it. As a result, unless you have a fault in your shower, when using a surface membrane, very little moisture gets beneath the tile, and in a typical home, it dries out in between uses. Throw in a porous tile, or a gap, and water still won't flow beneath the tile with a surface membrane, but given enough time, evaporate out the top, but it will not penetrate through the membrane or the seams, nor will there be enough liquid there to wick substantial distances to the point where it can cause problems unless you have a fault, like a birdbath or improper slope on the pan.

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

.... After reading this discussion I hope the "Pretend Builders" out there take their comments like "It's not required" "Follow Manufactures Specifications" and they shove that kind of chatter up their back sides....

Pretend Builders with Skills learned online dispensed as facts. The blind leading the blind.

Capillary Action - Wicking - Migration of water.

​

..... I've heard of it wicking up maybe in the order of 10" or so if the pan is not built right ......

Is this shower not built right? Looks like it is only missing a capillary break. It could have benifitted from a some Ardex 8+9 but other than that it looks like it was built well.

Lets remember in this photo the climb is vertical. Now place this horizontal and how far does the water go?

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

Pit Falls for NOT FOLLOWING manufactures errors - Article by Dave Gobis

Waterproofing Disasters - written by Dave Gobis

 

[Eurob]

Never used a liquid membrane -- nothing wrong with them -- without a fabric or mesh reinforcement -- shower floor and changes of planes -- . Even the niches get this treatment .


I wonder what disaster happened with the sheet membranes -- articles ??? --.

 

[Jadnashua]

Waterproofing Disasters - written by Dave Gobis

Well, the two things I got out of this was, follow the manufacturer's instructions if you want it to work (something I've been saying for a long time), and two, to get a proper installation of a liquid waterproofing membrane, you must use a wet thickness gauge, which I've been ridiculed over more than once by John Whipple.

That each product has it's own requirements for proper installation and proper performance is or should be, a given. Another thing in the article was the fact that on-site modification of those procedures can negate the proper operation and compromise the install. Time in the industry is not an indication of abilities to perform per those instructions, nor that they understand the ramifications.

I hear so many stories from people that say 'I've been doing it this way for years, and never had issues' when shortly afterwards, there IS an issue. The manufacturers spend sometimes years with instrumented tests and modifications on the best way to use their products, then someone comes along and says, you don't need to do that, or, you can only get a reliable result if you deviate and do it this way. IMHO, what a crock. If you don't like the product, or how it performs, or some other aspect, don't use it. That an individual thinks he knows better than the years of research and many years of field experience in the field over many thousands of installs the manufacturer puts into developing the product, seems foolish.

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

I wonder what disaster happened with the sheet membranes

.....I wonder what disaster happened with the sheet membranes...

I think this is the point of the article Roberto. No disasters reported - Kind of why the link is on the Schluter Web Page.

Last Year Dean from Noble Company gave me his power point on Why Waterproofing Fails. He had some references on sheet membranes being used as a wear surface. Storing crap on them. Talked a little about failed seams when people used modified thin-set to seam the sheets of Noble instead of Noble Sealant 150. That was a about it.

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

Pitfalls of following these video recommendations

[video=youtube_share;Td-eln3bKes]http://youtu.be/Td-eln3bKes[/video]


So an Eager Beaver might research the internet for a long time. Watch videos. Post blogs. Ask questions. Read answers and be armed and ready for the weekends job list.

Q: So what are the pitfalls to watching and following the video instructions above in this video?

A: The risk of tenting .... If you do not know what was showcased wrong - are you really ready for the job of installing Easy Mat? I have given two clues on two separate pages online as to what is wrong with the video. Now if the tiled floor does tent and the job fails.... Are you covered? Pretty large pitfall if you ask me.

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

..... I hear so many stories from people that say 'I've been doing it this way for years, and never had issues' when shortly afterwards, there IS an issue. .....

No Jim - You read so many stories like that. Too hear them you need to leave your office and work on job sites for a living. Stop pretending. Tell the truth Sally.

 

[Eurob]

I think this is the point of the article Roberto. No disasters reported - Kind of why the link is on the Schluter Web Page.

If not respecting the recommendations is the main reason for the article , same should be applied for any waterproofing product . Highlighting liquid membranes in a '' disaster '' or even associate them with it , on surface , it means using a sheet membrane -- the "" S "" is much better for preventing .......a '' disaster '' .


My take on it is :

Liquid membranes are used for continuous submerged -- swimming pools , fountains , water features -- and sheet membranes are not . If we fast forward it , it gives us , when deep looking into it , a higher advantage for using the liquids vs. the sheet membranes in a shower .

The desire of selling it or compete with other manufacturers , made the use of the fabric a '' non required '' option . I've had vivid discussions about it , but no one cares . It comes into play when things go wrong . And if the % of failures is minimal or easily blamed on '' installer error '' , then politically the '' non requirement of the fabric '' can survive .

I've never agreed with it and always took the extra steps of including it -- the fabric -- with all installations of liquid membranes .

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

The banding shown here is MapeiBand..... Required in Europe and Australia. Yet not in North America.... Odd.

 

[Jadnashua]

What might be misleading on the video is they appear to not have left a perimeter gap on the tile, but from the angle, you cannot tell for sure. EasyMat itself is flexible, so butting it up against a wall (as opposed to a rigid backerboard) shouldn't be an issue. But, when setting the tile, the industry standards call for rocking it back and forth across the notches, and when doing it as show, there was no room to do that. That could easily lead to failure to get full coverage on the back of the tile.

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

Jim the video shows thin-set filling in the gap of the second layer of plywood where it meets the wall. This bathroom is going to fail because of this step. Leading to tenting.

Poor video. Poor instruction. - Kind of like that terrible kerdi video you just linked to that shows an improper installation of a niche (no washers) and poorly screwed off drywall. Whoops sorry I think Schluter calls that Solid Backing. Then a poor installation of Kerdi Band to a tub deck in the first demo.

Videos are made by the sales teams I think. Not by the men in the field building these showers....

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

"Not Required"

Jim have you been following the discussion I linked to above on your beloved John Bridge forum? How come you are not blasting the tile men there for recommending the fabric with Hydro Ban? Clear as day it states "Not Required". So why then do you not blast them for over building?

I find it very interesting your mannerisms here on Terry's forum compared to John Bridge's. Here you come across as the expert - knowledgeable on all facts. There you wait for a chance to answer an unanswered question.

So Mr. By the Book. I ask again - why is it you do not tell all the men on John Bridge's forum who say not to follow the recommendation "Not using Fabric" they are wrong? Why not tell them all about the millions of successful showers built that way?

LOL - so dependable the Big Red Shoe is

 

[Jadnashua]

The Hydro-Ban instructions say fabric in not 'required' IF the crack is up to 3mm (~1/8") - you have to read their footnotes to get the whole story. There's a very good reason why in the tile surface they call for an expansion joint at changes of plane. If you read the whole thread, the shower in question is in an area with high clay content which expands and contracts a lot with moisture content variations and the whole slab can move a fair amount over the year (that's a lot, seasonally), and in an area with high humidity changes which can affect the wooden framing. It appears that that failure was the result of the movement being too great for the Hydro-Ban to handle without the fabric reinforcement even though, at the time of the build, it was easily within specs.

Laticrete makes the fabric for those that want it stronger, and it is REQUIRED when the gap exceeds 3mm, so I don't see a big issue here with someone deciding to use what the manufacturer recommends to make it stronger. A big difference with some of the practices described elsewhere where some cobble together their various products of choice to achieve a goal not in evidence.

A fabric sheet membrane, whether embedded in a liquid, or bonded with thinset has the chance to retain its water tightness since it is more likely to debond over the joint and flex than a paint on waterproofing with a MUCH less tensile strength (unless you add in the fabric reinforcement).

FWIW, I do not follow all of the threads in all of their forums, so no, I did not see that one.

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

Mortar Shrinks - Wood Moves

....FWIW, I do not follow all of the threads in all of their forums, so no, I did not see that one.

OK Jim - if you say so. IMHO I think you follow every discussion on this forum and John's.

Wow - Dave Gobis on record dissing Liquids.

"....Personally, while they do have a place, I am not a fan of liquids. ...." - Dave Gobis Source

"...The crack occurred because either something moved too much, shrunk too much, the film thickness was off or a combination of all three. On a good day you get .0625 of movement before a fracture is possible. Fabric is cheap insurance ..." - Dave Gobis Source


I have promoted the use of better blocking. Less deflection. Dave touches on what the pros knows and what the Joe's don't.

Mortar shrinks. Wood moves....

 

[Jadnashua]

John, John, John, and what have I been saying for a long time and you've been dissing...I prefer a sheet membrane over a liquid one...it gives you the benefits of a reinforced liquid one without having to get extra materials involved, waiting for coats to dry, trying to embed reinforcement material and maybe skipping a place where it is truly needed. And, for all of this, you tell everyone I'm a hack, wannabe, etc.

Let's say you're using cbu on the walls...they tell you to leave approximately 1/8" gap between sheets. Nothing ends up perfect, and that is the limit on Hydro-ban's gap filling, so to use it, you tape the seams, fill with thinset, wait for that to cure, then you can put your first coat of material on. Wait for that to cure, add more, with fabric. Wait for that to cure, add your last coat. Wait for that to cure, then you can flood test. Compare that to a sheet membrane that is the reinforcement for those seams and it's all done in one step. Only one wait for things to cure, then flood test, and you're ready to tile. THere's a lot of wait time in there. Maybe okay if you're a DIY'er, but not so great if you're a pro, and for what I see as limited benefit.

Why not debate real issues rather than verbally playing bully?

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

Jim if you are so closed minded to liquids why are you signing up for classes from Mapei and Laticrete. Your such a tool...

Of course your knowledge comes in hind sight to these active discussions. I hinted last week about mortar shrinkage. Only one guy (sadly on the John Bridge Forum) mentioned this.

Mortar shrinks. A little - or a lot. Depends on what brand you use.

Here is a shower picture showing a five week old pre-slope.



This is yet another reason why trusting a thin 5 mil banding in these change of planes is not a great idea. Not unless you trust everything you read online. Many shower waterproofing systems are sold in five foot lengths. These are premium shower building products for the most part.



You can see here a shower's 3'x5' foot print done completely with one piece of NobleSeal TS. No worries about perfect seaming. No worries about 5 mil banding in the corners. Just utter shower waterproofing perfection. In case you did not know this. In the US Noble Company sells this stuff by the foot and ships to your front door for $5.00 flat. Beat that.

Look close at the change in plane detail. From shower floor to shower wall. No hard 90's. No crisp seam. A rolled edge made possible with folded inside corners.... Jim you are going to find it hard to research that detail - sorry.

The green stuff on the curb top. Why would I do that?

Was it to deviate from Manufactures recommendations?

Was it to use up some scrap product?

Do I just like the colour?

Or was it some other reason? Something I was concerned about? Something not mentioned by the makers of sheet membranes...... Deep thoughts by JDub LOL

Here is a clue as to why I did that....


Another teaser question for you folks playing at home.

What wicks water more? Modified or Un-Modified Thin-Set?