Standard for Uncoupling Membranes

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Reach4

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When I find the uncoupling membrane that requires no bonding. You can bet your ass I'll share it here. By name and with a picture if I find it.

As yet I can find not one reference to an uncoupling membrane that does not require it to be bonded to the subfloor by thin-set.

Wouldn't that be a floating tile system?
 
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Eurob

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John , on big commercial projects manufacturers and the specifiers are providing the specs. Tile contractors are there to respect them and ALL the recommendations of the specific manufacturer(s) .

Every project is different and requires specific planning . I am not sure how general guides or recommendations from TTMAC or TCNA would over rule the steps needed for a specific assembly or product to work .


JW said:
....from Dave Gobis. He refers to uncoupling membranes that do not require they be bonded to the the substrate.

This is what I'm looking for.

I am not reading or interpret it the same as you do . But if he does say it , maybe you can e-mail him directly for clarification.

I am not aware of any uncoupling membrane which doesn't require bonding to the substrate .
 

JohnfrWhipple

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"Sometimes they say they should be bonded to the substrate others say they don't need to be bonded. There is no agreement on how they should be installed and what they should do."

How do you interpret that Roberto?

From all I have read all uncoupling systems require the same installation. Thin-Set.

I'm confussed since clearly Dave Gobis is the expert. That said. What product if any is Dave referring too. It is clear to me that he is referencing an uncoupling membrane that does not require it to be bonded to the substrate.
 

Jadnashua

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In one way of thinking about it, an uncoupling membrane like Ditra or Strata_Mat are similar to a floating floor. The structure of the mat itself allows the entire top surface (tile/thinset) to move as a unit independent of the mat's bond to the substrate because of the flexibility of the ridges and the air space incorporated into it. The pockets in it provide pillars of vertical support for the surface load, but the mat acts like a bearing surface for horizontal movements. At least on Ditra, thinset does not stick to the top surface...it is only cured into those dovetail shaped pockets, holding it in place, and those pockets can move because they remain flexible when stressed. That effect plus the significant weight and friction prevent the tile from coming up without great effort. IT does nearly nothing, though, for vertical displacement. There is a slight effect, but that is the reason all of the manufacturers call for the floor to meet certain deflection specs before the material is installed.
 

Eurob

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"Sometimes they say they should be bonded to the substrate others say they don't need to be bonded. There is no agreement on how they should be installed and what they should do."

How do you interpret that Roberto?

From all I have read all uncoupling systems require the same installation. Thin-Set.

I'm confussed since clearly Dave Gobis is the expert. That said. What product if any is Dave referring too. It is clear to me that he is referencing an uncoupling membrane that does not require it to be bonded to the substrate.

I would interpret it as part of a discussion where the parties involved do not agree on how the UCM should be installed and what should do , nothing more .

I don't think he is addressing a specific UCM which doesn't require bonding to the substrate .
 

Dave Gobis

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The context on this subject is not being properly presented.

There is also one part of this thread that disturbs me greatly. Schluter Systems has never compensated or provided any other type of benefit to me personally in my entire career which spans over 40 years. I take offense to any implication otherwise. They were a client (along with most major manufacturers) of the Ceramic Tile Education Foundation of which I was the Executive Director.

Unfortunately lack of time would prevent me from regular participation here and only allows limited time at JBF
 

JohnfrWhipple

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con·text
ˈkäntekst/
noun
  1. the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.
    "the decision was taken within the context of planned cuts in spending"
    synonyms:circumstances, conditions, factors, state of affairs, situation, background, scene, setting More
    • the parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning.
      "word processing is affected by the context in which words appear"

Key discussion points as I see them
  • Standard for Uncoupling membranes (title of the discussion here)
  • "Sometimes they say they should be bonded to the substrate others say they don't need to be bonded. There is no agreement on how they should be installed and what they should do."

How can Dave stop in and not tell everyone what "Uncoupling Membrane" or "What product advertised as an uncoupling membrane" does not require bonding.

Last year a builder called the TCNA over a failed flood test. It was part of a Hot tub project in the US. Aqua Defence was the primary waterproofing material. He asked for help after the flood tested failed and he rang the TCNA for a detective. He was given a phone number. I was told that the call went something like this. "Installer Error is the main reason for most failures" Sight unseen. No visit. No nothing. My guess is very few jobs get looked at by TCNA detectives on the small time level. On commercial failures that is another thing all together. I spoke last year to another top tile man. This one referred to himself in the third person. Told me all the reason why drywall is the best backer board for a shower.

If you have a failure. What do you do? My gut tells me that the top detectives may not have the interests of the tile men on their sides. My gut tells me that even in smaller job things can go horribly wrong with a build. It is not enough to trust what the makers of products say as gossbel. If something fails- what are the worked in loop holes? You should know.

The term "Others" comes up all the time in specification.

Framing built and designed by others.
Tile assembly designed by others.
Load capicity set by others.

You are the "Other". Someone needs to be. If you are designing say 4000 hotel rooms in las vegas. Then calling someone like Dave Gobis to get a specification guideline is key to in my opinion shielding yourself from a failed specification. If you own a private care facility and all your showers are failing and you want to sue the builder. Then calling a detective like Dave Gobis can arm you with facts from a tile pro.

If your steam shower craps out? Who are you going to call? If your waterproofing flood test fails. Who are you going to call?

I heard back from Laticrete all ready and they are not aware of any product like Dave mentions. Waiting to hear back from Noble Company. Might as well call Mapei and Custom at the some time today.

Now just for fun. What if we call all the companies. And not one company makes nor knows about this phantom product. The uncoupling membrane that does no require bonding. They what should we make of that?

My name is John Whipple. My name is right there on the left. I build showers. I have no lab. No staff. I'm not paid by these companies to stir up shit. I'm not paid by them to sell their product. I blog about stuff I learn. Stuff I'm told. And stuff I find out.

Over the years I have been given loads of free product. From Schluter. From Ardex. From Laticrete. From Noble. These same companies I have used for years. I'm loyal to none of them. I use what I like from each to suit my needs.

They say respect is earned. Dave Gobis has yet to earn my respect. He shares in my opinion enough online to cause confusion or sell his ideas. He is not in my opinion a shinny knight and "Da man" he thinks he is. This is my opinion. I'm entitled to it. This is a public forum where people discuss things. Some topics just a little hotter than others.

Like I said above. When Dave tells me what the product is. I'll tell him who told me they think Schluter sponsored his lab for the first 10 - 20 years. Honestly it pisses me off to no end when people in this bunisness say things they do not want repeated. I don't play that game. You tell me something - you can bet your ass I'm going to share it....
 
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JohnfrWhipple

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....I don't think he is addressing a specific UCM which doesn't require bonding to the substrate .

Are you kidding? How in the hell do you get that from the statement above?

read the sentence more slowly;

"Sometimes they say they should be bonded to the substrate others say they don't need to be bonded. There is no agreement on how they should be installed and what they should do."

I underlined the part that confuses me.

I can find zero products that make the claim they do not need to be bonded to the substrate. Dave writes there is no agreement on how they should be installed yet everyone I have read shares thin-set as a requirement in installation. I would myself classify that as agreement personally. But hey I just build bathrooms - I'm not an expert TCNA Tile detective....

 

Jadnashua

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John doesn't seem to understand client privilege and confidentiality laws as often included in contracts when a consultant is involved in a potential lawsuit. Nor does he understand copyright laws with his repeated cut and pasting of posts from other, copyrighted forums.
 

Eurob

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Are you kidding? How in the hell do you get that from the statement above?

read the sentence more slowly;

"Sometimes they say they should be bonded to the substrate others say they don't need to be bonded. There is no agreement on how they should be installed and what they should do."

I underlined the part that confuses me.

I can find zero products that make the claim they do not need to be bonded to the substrate. Dave writes there is no agreement on how they should be installed yet everyone I have read shares thin-set as a requirement in installation. I would myself classify that as agreement personally. But hey I just build bathrooms - I'm not an expert TCNA Tile detective....

This is what I read out from it , John .

If you want me to speculate , I would say he is inviting us to participate in the meetings . I would also be curious to know who is disagreeing with the UCM use and why . I don't see any clear evidence of the product failures other than some say it fails some tests . If it works in a specific assembly -- long term use -- , then the time test is past with success .
 

JohnfrWhipple

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Roberto - I'm at a loss to figure out how you get that from a simple sentence I wrote above.

Other's in my opinion mean more than one. So it would be safe I think to think more than one company makes this claim. I can find none.

Why post a fact like this? Why suggest that some systems require no bonding?

I was told when the TCNA came up with the perm rating requirements the first time a group of men all chatted about the numbers and in the end picked one that they all could meet. That number was made large enough so they all could meet it.

Years later this has changed and some of the group are excluded.

What as tile men can we offer to the table? If the rules state you simple need to provide an install spec, have that tested and your golden then what does it matter what I think?

What I think. What I know. Is that there is a steady stream of Bull Shit in the business. Some Jack Ass says something in a product training class and that gets repeated. In time the Bull Shit is so well know it becomes a fact. Then years can go by and then something bad happens and the Bull Shit becomes "Installer Error".

I get told new info all the time. By so many manufactures. New products. Hey John did you see this? yatta yatta yatta.

Someone tells me something that does not compute _ I test it. Myself. With tools and materials I use every week. No labs. No controlled settings just off cuts and mock ups.

I was told a couple years back that Ardex X32 was waterproof. That you could make a dish with it and it could hold water for a week. I was told this by someone that works at Ardex. Guess what. I checked. It does not. I was told Ardex X32 sets under water. I was told kerdi fix does too. I checked. Yup - both do. I was told Af207 is better than thin-set - ahh Nope. On and on and on again.

The only one protecting you from harm on a job is YOU. It is not possible to follow any specification and do everything right. Meet every detail. And in the end there is nothing really to gain by being so precise unless your building 3000 units in Las Vegas.

I check my products that they are fresh. I give room for expansion. Use the best products I can find and install everything with care. That is what I can do.

Then you read some crap online that does nothing other than cause confusion. Leads me to think that company's are suggesting tile underpayments can go in unbonded that pisses me off. We all share info. We all work to better the business. We all work to promote ourselves and showcase our work. But other people are promoting for the wrong reasons. Paid to write. Paid to promote. Paid to sell.

I get calls from all over North America. People sick of the confusion. Tired of the trying to figure out what is hope and what is fact. People like to trust a system or an approach. I build different than Roberto. I build different than Erik. We each have our preferred approaches. We each like our own systems. None of us are wrong. A shower can be build a thousand different ways.

I won't hold my breath for an answer from Dave Gobis. If he shares with use who the company's are he mentions I will be floored. I just don't see it happening.

The TCNA and TTMAC have lots to be desired to be added to their specifications but they do offer up the best protection from unskilled workers. IF you add in the extras like pre-slope and waterproofing which still are listed in many specifications as optional.

There is a game being played by very few men. Some of these men move from company to company but the game never changes. Market Share. Advertising. Selling against each other.

it's business. It is not seen as a game until you understand all the systems. All the players. All the angles.

I have been working in the business a long time. I can see the tonge and check for what it is. I hear on occasion the venting from some people and understand their frustration. Each week goes by you learn more. Yiu hear about a failure. A flawed design. Something not quite right.

We have the luxury of discussing these issues here. In the public and this freedom allows us to showcase some pitfalls in the industry. Many people will learn one lesson from this (hopefully that all tile prep needs to be bonded) and this will help them narrow in on an overall design for their bathroom. The biggest lesson I learn of 2014 is to really be careful with What Thin-Set we use in a steam shower build. A huge lesson learned right here on Terry's forum. One I will heed for years to come.

Thanks to men like me - sharing. Giving a shit. Sucking up their pride for the greater good. As a manufacture a discussion on an open forum is something you will love or hate. And not something you can control when those discussion the details are not in your employ or loyal to any one company. This is why I love the forums and terry's most.

2015 is going to be a great year. I am going to continue to hone my skills. Improve my posts. Take more vidoes and really focus on the art of setting tile next year. I'm sure there will be those among us upset with my standards. With what I call base grade and what I call acceptable.

We live in an age where everyone specializes on a home.

One guy builds.
One guy does plumbing.
One guy wires.
One guy boards.
One guy tapes.
One guy tiles.
One guy grouts.

And in most jobs I see. None of the men really give a shit about any of the others. The amount of showers I see tiled with open gaps in the corner. No mesh tape. No waterproofing is so alarming. I can not build every shower and it takes a builder to give a shit about the steps.

If your building your own home - watch out. The standards that are acceptable by your city are far below what the TCNA or TTMAC want, and they have lots to be desired themselves.

I will hopefully find one product out there that lists itself from the others as unbounded. I'll put this vent to bed until any new info arises.

Hopefully people reading this will ask themselves a few hard questions. Hopefully some people will learn something new. The original discussion has gone on for years on the JBF. And still no specifications. No hint of a start date. Nothing.

The discussion started by A Noble Employee named Eric. This man is one of the smartest men I know. Knows this business backwards and forwards. He has not switch job from here to there. He continues to better the business but has to play a game I want no part of. The politics of the group mentality. remember the TCNA is an organization of company's. It is not a private group for profit like say consumer reports magazine.

I have used uncoupling membranes for years. Over 14 now. I do not build my current projects like I did 14 years ago. Not because they have failed but because now I know more and have access to better products. I try and follow as many rules as I can but have learned that most jobs put you somewhere in Gray Zones.

It's easy to talk about building showers. It is easy to rip apart someones work and say they do not know what they are doing. It is another thing all together to continue to build successful project over and over again. We have a handful of tile guys here on terry's forum. A couple of writers and promoters. Loads of plumbers. On kick ass electrian and many other men with various skills. As a group we discuss whatever.

It never surprises me the lengths some people take to defend certain products online. Makes me wonder why.
 

Eurob

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All of that ^^^^^^^^ from few words I wrote ?!:D

We are talking about standards for the UCM ...... even if you have them , you are trying or better said have to respect all of the recommendations of the mfg , it is imperative. The standard or the TCNA , TTMAC or any other organisations will not over rule the requirements set by the mfg .

According to TTMAC for uncoupling membranes :

In the current 09 30 00 manual need to be updated, specifically, the notes in Other Considerations referring to “Uncoupling membrane may require unmodified dry-set mortar for tile bond coat. Follow manufacturer’s recommendations”. The submission is to change it to: “Follow Uncoupling Membrane manufacturer’s recommendations for tile bond coat”. Materials:

  • Uncoupling Membrane – follow manufacturer’s recommendations for appropriate mortars: membrane must achieve 0.3 N/mm2 (50 PSI or greater) shear bond strength after 7 days per the test method in ANSI A 118.12 section 5.1.3.
- See more at: http://www.ttmac.com/en/specification-addendums.html#sthash.x1ppmEBp.dpuf


Uncoupling membranes: These membranes are geometrically configured to create free space between the tile and the substrate which allows a combination of functions to allow tile installations over problematic substrates. These functions include independent movement between the substrate and tile, vapour management, waterproofing, supporting and load distribution. Mortar recommendations will vary from one manufacturer to another and manufacturer’s recommendations must be followed and take precedence over industry norms. There is currently no standard for uncoupling membranes in either ANSI or ISO, however one is under development by the MMSA (Materials, Methods and Standards Association) have currently created one performance criterion that the membrane must be able to achieve 50 PSI or greater shear bond strength after a 7 day cure per the test method in ANSI A118.12 Section 5.1.3. Consult the manufacturer’s written literature for specific application details. - See more at: http://www.ttmac.com/en/specification-addendums.html#sthash.x1ppmEBp.dpuf
 

JohnfrWhipple

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Members of the committee opposed the original definition which ironically they voted for and those other than the manufactures of the product drafted it's current definition.

Uncoupling Membrane
A plastic membrane system geometrically
configured to provide air space
between the tile and the substrate to
allow independent movement between
the two and limit the transfer of
stresses.


OK - Again. I ask you to read only the lines above in brown or orange or burnt orange. Why would Custom Building Products Allow this definition? Why would they vote on it? I ask this because they sell an Uncoupling membrane unlike Ditra and Strata Mat.

So by this new meeting update with the TCNA Council. IS Spider Web II not an uncoupling membrane? Of have I miss read things again?

Perhaps the makers of uncoupling membranes where not allowed to vote like I was told they did when Perm Ratings criteria was set years back. If this is the case - the other members voting certainly stuck it to Custom. Maybe they can go back to using the Dural CI product and call it Spider Web Again.
 

JohnfrWhipple

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Thanks for the link Roberto.

TTMAC Specification Addendums
Page 25 Under Membranes and Underlayments:


Uncoupling Membranes: These membranes are geometrically configured to create free space between the tile and the substrate which allows a combination of functions to allow tile installations over problematic substrates. These functions include independent movement between the substrate and tile, vapour management, waterproofing, supporting and load distribution. Mortar recommendations will vary from one manufacturer to another and manufacturer’s recommendations must be followed and take precedence over industry norms. There is currently no standard for uncoupling membranes in either ANSI or ISO, however one is under development by the MMSA (Materials, Methods and Standards Association) have currently created one performance criterion that the membrane must be able to achieve 50 PSI or greater shear bond strength after a 7 day cure per the test method in ANSI A118.12 Section 5.1.3. Consult the manufacturer’s written literature for specific application details. - See more at: http://www.ttmac.com/en/specification-addendums.html#sthash.x1ppmEBp.zgynrmxX.dpuf


Look at that. Lets break all that info down into tiny bits.

Key Point # 1

These membranes are geometrically configured to create free space between the tile and the substrate
which allows a combination of functions to allow tile installations over problematic substrates.
  • These functions include independent movement between the substrate and tile,
  • vapour management,
  • waterproofing,
  • supporting and load distribution.
  • create free space between the tile and the substrate
  • allow tile installations over problematic substrates
Key Point # 2

Mortar recommendations will vary from one manufacturer to another and manufacturer’s recommendations must be followed and take precedence over industry norms.

  • Manufacturer's recommendations must be followed at all times. Even if the Industry says different. The maker of the product calls all the shots with it's product.

Key Point # 3


There is currently no standard for uncoupling membranes in either ANSI or ISO, however one is under development by the MMSA (Materials, Methods and Standards Association) have currently created one performance criterion that the membrane must be able to achieve 50 PSI or greater shear bond strength after a 7 day cure per the test method in ANSI A118.12 Section 5.1.3.
  • MMSA is working on a standard. I never even heard of them before this day.
  • 50 PSI - this reference I have tested myself in my back yard no lab like setting

Key Point # 4

Consult the manufacturer’s written literature for specific application details.
 

JohnfrWhipple

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What Problematic Substrates does an Uncoupling Membrane allow the use over?
  • Can you tile over substrates with too much deflection?
  • Can you tile over substrates with moisture trapped inside?
  • Can you tile over substrates with paint?
  • Can you tile over substrates with grease?
  • Can you tile over green concrete?
  • Can you tile over fresh self levelling compound cured less than a week?
  • Can you tile over concerte with a high fly ash content?
  • Can you tile over concerte with a smooth service?
Which of the above list is considered a problematic substrate?
 

JohnfrWhipple

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If an uncoupling membrane by definition needs to create a free space between the tile and the substrate how much of a space is needed?
  • Is 5% free space OK
  • Is 10% free space OK
  • is 15% free space OK
  • How about 20%
  • 25%
  • 30%
  • 35%
  • 40%
  • 45%
  • 50%
If a tile is required to have 80% coverage under it with thin-set does this mean that 20% air space is the most allowed?

If a tile is required to have 100% coverage in the corners and edges is the air space conflicting with this requirement?

With this new definition will Custom Building Products be allowed to sell Spider Web II as an uncoupling membrane?

maxresdefault.jpg


Spider Web II is advertised as an Uncoupling Mat.
Is that different than an Uncoupling membrane? There is no air space in this design.....
 
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Eurob

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Members of the committee opposed the original definition which ironically they voted for and those other than the manufactures of the product drafted it's current definition.

Uncoupling Membrane
A plastic membrane system geometrically
configured to provide air space
between the tile and the substrate to
allow independent movement between
the two and limit the transfer of
stresses.


OK - Again. I ask you to read only the lines above in brown or orange or burnt orange. Why would Custom Building Products Allow this definition? Why would they vote on it? I ask this because they sell an Uncoupling membrane unlike Ditra and Strata Mat.

So by this new meeting update with the TCNA Council. IS Spider Web II not an uncoupling membrane? Of have I miss read things again?

Perhaps the makers of uncoupling membranes where not allowed to vote like I was told they did when Perm Ratings criteria was set years back. If this is the case - the other members voting certainly stuck it to Custom. Maybe they can go back to using the Dural CI product and call it Spider Web Again.

Every mfg has the right to call it as it see fit . If they want to attach a standard to it , then they have to get the specific tests done to be part of the specific standard .

Who are the ones limiting the UCM from being attached to a specific standard ? I am sure you know at least one member which does . But it is not important , so let's follow it more ........
 

JohnfrWhipple

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I heard back from one manufacture that informed me that some of the Uncoupling membranes are failing because the "scrim" is coming off. This is leading to massive failures.

If the Scrim is coming off - is that not what it is suppose to do? Is that not "Uncoupling". Or is it coming off at less than 50 PSI force?

The Scrim is bonded with thin-set. I think this is the white fleece on an uncoupling membrane.

Time to search out the knock off's.


Now if this is happening. What should we do? Maybe we could test the Scrim prior to using the product? Maybe we could have a standard that uncoupling membranes must meet? Maybe....

What manufacture that makes uncoupling membranes glues the fleece to the plastic dimpled mat? CX from the JBF refers to this in this post back in 2010.

A quick search of Ditra Knock Off's. Failed Scrim. Tile Failure because of scrim netted no discussions.
 
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