Small hose in toilet tank - why?

[WellHead]

Hi All,

Ooops, sorry, this should have gone in the Toilet Forum.

Our toilet tanks have a small hose that runs from the inlet to the overflow tube. I assumed that it was some kind of overflow, but it ain't. I had to replace the flapper and overflow unit and I could not get the plastic ring to fit over the new pipe so I just left it hanging while I tested it. I saw water flowing out of that little pipe during the flush.

Why is there a trickling stream of water running into the bowl for the entire flush cycle?

I have now removed it and pointed it into the tank so it is not wasted. I can't see how that little trickle could be any benefit at the end of the flush.

Can someone please explain why it is there?

 

[LLigetfa]

Its purpose is to refill the bowl after a flush.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[hj]

When you DO reinsert it into the large pipe, you have to secure it somehow so it does NOT go too far down into the large pipe.

 

[WellHead]

Thanks for the quick reply but the bowl is still filling to the normal level with the hose flowing into the main tank. I guess I can leave it like that and save a little extra water.

I know it is filling the bowl to the correct level as we are on a well and the Iron Bacteria has left level marks everywhere and it it is still filling to that line.

 

[Jadnashua]

How old is the toilet? How many gallons does it use when it flushes? Does it flush well? It is a rare toilet that gets the bowl filled properly without the tube to do it. If it doesn't flush well because of a partial clog, the bowl may not empty fully, so then it wouldn't need to be refilled.

 

[Jimbo]

I would be concerned that you have the wrong flapper, which stays open too long. Ideally, the flapper lets in just enough water to cause the bowl to flush, and by definition that flush removes the waste and most of the water from the bowl. If the flapper stays open beyond that point, it is wasting water. The flapper should close and the refill tub fills the bowl back up.

 

[LLigetfa]

My guess is that the OP is holding the lever down to get the bowl to refill.

 

[Ballvalve]

You want the tube in the overflow because it fills the trap first which stops sewer gas from entering the house.

Flappers being somewhat bouyant by design, I think his bowl is getting filled before the water rises enough to fully close the flapper. He will be here soon to say that he is NOT holding the handle down.

 

[LLigetfa]

I think his bowl is getting filled before the water rises enough to fully close the flapper.

If the flapper has not yet closed, there is no way the water could be rising in the tank. The flapper closes on its own as the water level is dropping or later when the lever is let go. Maybe his new flapper leaks slowly and refills the bowl, then as the water level rises, it seals from the additional pressure.

 

[WellHead]

Hi all,

Thanks for the input, but let me clear some things up.

The toilets are around two or three years old and they were complete sets. As in tank and base came came ready to drop on the wax ring, tighten the two floor bolts and the two tank bolts and connect the water.

I do not hold the handle down.

As a Mechanical Engineer with 40-years experience, I cannot see how far down the large pipe the small hose should be fixed could possibly have any effect. It is not a siphon hose, it is under mains pressure.

The flapper does not leak. How do I know? That's because leaking and Iron Bacteria staining from a leaking flapper is what has caused me to replace the flapper assembly. I first tried new flappers but no success. I then tried two different brands of complete flapper assemblies that had a sloping flapper seal (as did the original) and both leaked a tiny, tiny but constant amount and left Iron Bacteria stains. The current flapper assembly that does NOT leak, it has a horizontal flapper seal and it works a treat.

I bought the flapper assembly complete so I know it is the correct flapper for the seal.

The horizontal flapper lip is slightly higher than all three angled-seal crap, so it is releasing less water if anything.

I have not changed or adjusted the filling system so the fill level is the same as whatever the water-conservation freakies insist it should be.

I bought two of these complete toilet sets at the same time. Both leaked and left Iron Bacteria stains. I have now fitted both with the horizontal-seal flapper and both have the little hose running into the tank. Both fill perfectly. And, we get no gas flow-back. although it could be hard to tell after some flushes. LOL

We live on a farm with a septic tank so we only flush for pee when it smells a little and on those times there is no noticeable gas flow-back odor.

I did not mean this to turn into the Great Debate, , but to me, since it seems to be filling correctly, no gas flow back, I am leaving the hose to fill the tank.

Thanks

 

[Ballvalve]

Put pressure on the flapper just as it empties and see if you get water in the bowl.

I have a one piece tank and I'll pull the tube and report back on this mystery.

 

[Terry]

As a Mechanical Engineer with 40-years experience, I cannot see how far down the large pipe the small hose should be fixed could possibly have any effect.

We could explain why the till tube being too far down the overflow tube would put water in the bowl, but your mind is already made up. It happens. That's all "you" need to know. Explaining things to engineers is never worth the effort.
For the non-engineers out there, don't let the fill tube be too far down the overflow tube. It fact most come with a little air gap for just that purpose. Prevention. A tube too far down willl siphon water from the tank, into the bowl.

If you have a tank in the last 19 years, then it's a low flow bowl. The bowl only needs 1.6 gallons to flush. The tank will hold 2.5 gallons or more. If you buy a standard flapper replacement for an ancient bowl, it will drain the entire tank. You can buy replacement parts that are timed to let out only 1.6 gallons. If that is the case, you may need the refill tube directed to the overflow tube to refill the bowl.

If this particular toilet refills the bowl without the refill tube and you're happy, then I'm happy too.
If I'm at someone's home, I have to make the customer happy too. In those cases, since water is so expensive in the Seattle area, and water rates will be going up 30%, we like to squeeze whatever savings we can. And I live in the engineer capital of the world. In fact my youngest is studying to "be" an engineer, so I personally know what it's like to explain simple things to someone like that.
I did talk him through changing a flat tire on his car the other day though. Though by the time I was his age, I had changed quite a few, rebuilt some engines, done clutch replacements and brakes. A simple head replacement was easy.

 

[hj]

quote; As a Mechanical Engineer with 40-years experience, I cannot see how far down the large pipe the small hose should be fixed could possibly have any effect. It is not a siphon hose,

Then you SHOULD know that one way to start a siphon is to fill the hose with water and then immerse one end beneath the water and hold the other end lower than the water level. IF you undestand that, then you should be able to transfer THAT concept to a refill tube which is inserted into the overflow pipe lower than the water level in the tank, AFTER the fill valve shuts off but while the tube is still full of water. At that point it IS A SIPHON HOSE, NOT a pressure hose.

 

[WellHead]

Thanks for clearing that up, but the reality is it could never become a siphon until the difference in head was in excess of the mains pressure which on my well varies between 40-psi and 55-psi.

The tube, if you check the pic in the first post, is about 5" long and even if it was 5-feet long it could never siphon with mains pressure behind the flow. But he, what might I know. (rhetorical question, that)

 

[WellHead]

If you have a tank in the last 19 years, then it's a low flow bowl. The bowl only needs 1.6 gallons to flush. The tank will hold 2.5 gallons or more. If you buy a standard replacement for an ancient bowl, it will drain the entire tank.

LOL , it may be a chore to explain to Engineers, but at least we read well. My last post stated that the entire toilet, base, tank and all inner workings came in a single box and is about 3 years old. No danger there of emptying the tank.

If Engineers are so useless then how come Plumbers don't design aircraft?

Good to see the kid is not following in Father's footsteps.

Geeze, some of you guys are twitchy about being challenged on long-held beliefs. Old Arabian Proverb, "Arrogance diminishes Wisdom."

 

[WellHead]

Hi BV,

I pushed the flapper down with a 4" disk of flat plastic sheet. As soon as the flapper dropped onto the seat, I pushed on it with the disk and sealed it and waited until it filled the tank. It still filled the bowl up to the Iron stain with the original volume of flush water.

All moot as it appears to be doing everything OK, but making for an interesting dialog with some.

 

[hj]

quote; Thanks for clearing that up, but the reality is it could never become a siphon until the difference in head was in excess of the mains pressure which on my well varies between 40-psi and 55-psi.

I think you may have been sleeping during some of your classes. THAT hose NEVER has 40-55 psi flowing through it, and the line pressure STOPS at the entry to the valve as soon as the tank is full. At that point the tube is FULL of water, and there is a pressure differential between the water level in the tank and the end of the tube, if the tube's end is below the water level by ANY amount. What kind of "engineer" are you? Did you forget where you parked your locomotive?

 

[Terry]

Here is some simple math.

When all toilets for the last 19 years use 1.6 or less, that also means that toilets in the last few years are in that age range.
And yes we wonder why it takes so long for the engineers to get the new planes off the ground.

I have to explain things to them like,
Water runs down hill. Don't slope the yard toward your home unless you "like" flooding.
A home has bearing points, so make sure that those line up.

If it wasn't for construction workers, engineers would be having coffee with their wifes explaining how the entire world out there isn't as smart as their husband, while she was calling the plumber to fix their plumbing.

We don't spend all day dreaming about solutions, we get things done. It's not like we haven't thought of all the things you come up with, it's just that over time, we've done them all. For you it's new. For us, it's just friggin old stuff we learned years and years ago.
But keep trying. At the rate your're going, you might even get to be smarter then the drunk down the street. It's good to have goals.

 

[Ballvalve]

I'm no toilet engineer, but for gods sake tell me how water gets in the bowl if the flapper is held shut and the hose is disconnected....

Is there a water pathway we cannot see?

Here is a cutaway view. I see no path to the bowl.

http://www.toilet-repairs.com/

 

[LLigetfa]

As is being surmised, the bowl is slow to evacuate and the volume from the tank large enough and slow enough that the bowl is full when the flapper closes. Probably not what the flushologists had in mind when they engineered it but then again there were some pretty poorly engineered toilets and probably still are.