Restoring an old deep well-many mysteries

[Bob NH]

I don't see why a drawdown of some number is significant to the system.

You should be able to predict the maximum drawdown rate. What is maximum demand? Then set the ON DELAY to the interval determined by your maximum demand and desired maximum drawdown before the pump starts. Let's say that is two hours.

If you don't have maximum demand (or any demand) then the pump will try to start at two-hour intervals. It may run for a very short time, or for an hour. The daily number of cycles is limited by the interval, and running 12 to 24 cycles per day should not be a problem for the pump. At that number of cycles per day, what is the problem if they are short ON times?

The cycle time is at least two hours. The ON time may be short, but you still have a long CYCLE time from ON to the next ON.

 

[Leejosepho]

mechanically delayed float valve

... a standard float valve [talking about a float on an arm working a valve stem] that somehow had its own "time delay" mechanism of a mechanical nature ... a system to mechanically [and predictably] delay the opening of a float valve without any electric parts.

Remove the float from the end of the float arm and rework the end of that float arm to imitate the arm of a sump switch. Then, add a ~horizontal tension spring to the float arm so that it will snap over-center and close the valve when the tank is almost full. Then add a vertical float and rod (like for a sump pump) that will drop the desired distance before pulling the modified float arm down ... and will then push it back up to the point that the ~horizontal spring snaps the modified float valve closed once again.

Is that what you are trying to do?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Speedbump]

Exactly, pedistal sump pumps have used this method for years. A simple fiberglas rod with a couple of tight rubber gromets that can be slid up and down on either side of a float that has a hole through the center to slide up and down the rod. The rod is attached to the Bob valve that will open/close.

bob...

 

[Raucina]

Thanks, thats what I had in mind. I think the sump pumps floats are actuating an electrical switch, so the close-open requires very little push or pull from the floats. [?] Trying to lock a 3/4" liquid float valve in the closed position will require quite a bit of mechanical effort - as might the release of same. [ which is why large float valves have long pivot arms and large floats]

Then to make this ultra reliable becomes a chore. Seems ripe for a new mechanism, a special valve and a patent. I think that a toilet float valve is a good starting point as they seem to have a positive and fast shutoff at its set point

Without any off the shelf solutions, I suppose bobnh's time delay relay is the easier solution but without an entirely predictable drawdown.

It is obvious however, that pump life would be extended with one 1,000 gallon cycle per day [or none] rather than 12 or 20 short ones.

Any other rube goldbergs with design ideas? Unfortunately a picture is worth a thousand words in this discussion.

 

[Raucina]

Is the cla val valve so unreliable or so expensive that it makes several electrical components look better?

Your solution looks good but can such a small solar panel charge the battery? And where does one find such a panel?

It still seems to me there is a market for a simple mechanical valve using floats that has an adjustable drawdown. Considering that much of rural california requires 2500 gallon tanks now, its an exponentially larger market than CSV's for sure.

 

[Speedbump]

Aren't these 2500 gallon tanks for storage only? I didn't think they were pressurized, just filled up for fire protection with a jockey pump to pull from them. If that's the case, they will still need a pressure tank and the CSV.

bob...

 

[Bob NH]

I believe that you (Raucina) are creating a your own difficult problem with no real benefit when you make requirements of wanting some predictable drawdown and no wires to the tank. Most people, when they analyze the matter, want to keep reservoirs full. You never know when you are going to need more water. If you want to minimize pump starts, then analyze water usage and set your timing interval consistent with that much usage and drawdown.

If your maximum usage is 400 gallons per day and you want the 2500 gallon tank to never fall below 1/3 empty, you can run the pump every other day.

I would be inclined to take an engineering approach along the following lines.

Make a list of concepts that work.
Compare the costs of those systems.
Pick the one that has the most value to you for the cost involved.

Possible solutions:
1. Float switch at tank with low voltage wire from pump to tank. You can set the range of the float switch to anything you want.
2. Float valve at the tank with pressure switch and timed "testing" to see if the tank is full. If not full, pump until full.
3. Some kind of complex valve or remote system to do exactly what you want. It may have been invented but nobody here has been able to give you a catalog number.

I suspect that a float switch with 24VAC off a $10 transformer with $40 worth of relays and some bell wire from the pump to the tank will be the most reliable and least expensive solution. I have seen such systems operate for years without any trouble.

 

[Speedbump]

The Grundfos rigs look nice [?] - soft start, variable, 3" diameter - 600$ on E-bay....What brand pump would you use in such a deep hole?

If the well is 3", go with the 3" pump. If not, why waste the money. The 3" pump is almost triple the price of a 4" sub. Not only that, but there are about 31 different pumps to choose from and they are not all in the $600.00 range. Why waste your money on a Grundfos at all. They are no better than any other pump IMO, but do cost more.

bob...

 

[Raucina]

Thanks for all the input. Yes the tank is high up the hill, people that grow up here and work outside get one leg longer than the other.

The tanks are dept of forestry regulated and this state monopoly is becoming a dark shadow of big brother - they also regulate road grade which if enforced will make many thousands of parcels unbuildable... big controversy. I am rushing to put in septic systems before the new reg's that will kill another thousand parcels. Looks like a taking of land to me. So far not much interest in water well reg's.

By the time the fire dept gets here, all they can do is hose the ashes anyway with this 2500 gallons. The few owners that try and hook up a gas pump or generator usually find the gas is varnish or the rats ate the fuel line when the fire comes. Only the guy with the gravity system has a bit of a chance. If the power stays on and there is some wildfire warning at least those with a booster pump can hose the rooftop. Many never hook up the tank to the system so it becomes an algae garden of gook anyway.

The only way to survive a fire here is to DESIGN the house not to burn on the outside and frequent use of a small dozer- just burned a pile of brush about 100' in diameter and ten feet tall - could have roasted a million weenies on the ashes- but it saved about 40 acres of pine forest from the next fire.

I see the solar system as a bit too many parts.... the cla valve as too much money.... the wire as difficult and needing conduit in this wildlife region. So I vote for NH's standard valve and some time delay relays and perhaps a timer as well.

 

[Raucina]

Valid concerns about the contacts bouncing, but it seems the tank of any size will take care of that along with rather high pressure settings at the switch. I have another large tank at another place 65 psi up the hill - I pump it with a generator and there is no valve at all at the storage tank - 3000 gallons - do not get point bounce probably because the flow is rather low - pump near maximum head - so almost no velocity in lines when shutting down. I suspect that will be case with the float valve as well - also a system near maximum head at shutoff.

I admit the solar system has some attraction also.... especially if the panels are that cheap and actually work for more than the warranty period.

I still want to see the mechanical variable level control valve at around 100$ Do it before the Chinese find out.

 

[Speedbump]

It's too late for that, the Chinese already know and they have been around for years. Just modifie the idea to match your needs with a SS or Fiberglas rod around 3/16" in diameter, however long it needs to be, a couple of rubber grommets with holes in the center to slide tightly over the rod and a float from a sump pump and your good to go. Add a switch with a lever that can be pushed up/down for on/off and your done. The grommets can be spaced at the desired heights for on/off.

bob...