Replacing wall furnace

Users who are viewing this thread

gvladybug

New Member
Messages
24
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Grapevine, Texas
We have a house that my son lives in while attending college, built in 1949, that has a 25000 btu natural gas wall furnace for heating the room above the garage (it's about 400-600 sq ft total). I'm not sure if the heater is original to the age of the house or not. We are not sure the room above the garage is original or if it was added later, but at a minimum the heater was installed in the 60s or 70s based upon the exterior design/color of the furnace.

We have used the furnace every winter for the last 7 years we've own the property -- that is until last Spring when the carbon monoxide detector went off. It was at the end of the heating season and our son shut the pilot light off and we decided to address it this fall.

I had a repairman come out and he said he could not touch the furnace because it didn't meet code. He said there was no valve to shut the gas off to the furnace. He didn't really look around much because there is a valve downstairs in the garage (the room using this is just over the garage). So no help there and just a service call bill.......

We are planning on replacing this unit ourselves with a new model. We have no idea why the current unit suddenly started having carbon monoxide issues. We know the carbon monoxide build up could be due to a crack in the heater unit, or some blockage in the vents. We are assuming it's due to the age of the unit -- but will check the vents throughly when we do the install.

Does anyone have a recommendation for a unit?
We are looking at https://www.homedepot.com/p/William...Cabinet-Mounted-Thermostat-2509622A/100045691

Thanks in advance!
Diana
 

Dana

In the trades
Messages
7,889
Reaction score
509
Points
113
Location
01609
Running an aggressive (not conservative) quick & dirty Manual-J heating & cooling load calculation using a free online tool would give a better idea about what would be the most appropriate solution. But a 25K wall furnace is probably overkill by 3x for the actual heating needs.

For a 600' space over a garage in Texas a 3/4 ton or 1-ton mini-split heat pump is probably more useful than a wall furnace, even a DIY type. A 1-ton Mr. Cool or 3/4 ton Gree Vireo delivers over 12,000 BTU/hr @ +17F at high speed, which probably well over the design heat load even with little to no insulation. (Your 99% outside design temp is north of 25F where the capacity is even a bit higher than the AHRI rated heating capacity, which is specified at +17F.)

If there's any amount of fluff in the walls & ceiling even a 3/4 ton point terminal heat pump (PTHP) would cover it, and the cooling loads too. It might be within range of a half-ton PTHP even for cooling if there's any shading factor and no big west-facing windows. PTHPs are standard fare for hotels worldwide, manufactured in high quantity, and easier to install than a mini-split, but would require installing a wall sleeve and exterior grille. It's not going to be a huge cost saver over a cheap DIY mini-split.

These solutions offer great air conditioning to boot (not that it's ever HOT in Texas. :) ) You'd be trading some electrical work for some gas-fitting work, but overall it's a better more appropriately sized solution, with zero risk of carbon monoxide.

If it has to be a wall furnace not a heat pump, the little 8ooo BTU Rinnai units are pretty reliable. (Rinnai is the biggest manufacturer of gas-burning appliances in the world, and sells a gazillion of those 8K units into the domestic Japanese market. It's a well-evolved design.) The Manual-J calculation will tell you if it's big enough to stay warm when it's freezing outside, but it almost certainly is as long as the garage door is closed.
 

Dana

In the trades
Messages
7,889
Reaction score
509
Points
113
Location
01609
As an after thought, if there happens to be a gas water heater in the garage, there may be a simple hydronic heating solution using the water heater DIY-able for under a grand and a bit of plumbing work.

But calculating the heat load is the first order of business. Without a better handle on the actual load it needs to serve it's hard to zero in on what's going to make the most sense. Just because it's known that a 25K wall furnace can heat the place doesn't mean it provides the best comfort or value.
 

gvladybug

New Member
Messages
24
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Grapevine, Texas
Thanks Dana!

This is a college house that is about 1 block from campus in Stillwater, OK (Oklahoma State Univ.) where our son goes to school.
It does get cold there on a regular basis so a heat pump doesn't suffice. We actually have a mini-split for the AC in that room that has a heat pump heater. It works great till the temperatures drop too low (say upper 30s/40 degrees) then for the remainder of the winter it just cannot keep the room warm.

The other thing that the wall heater does is heat an adjacent bathroom. There is no vent into the bathroom but the wall between the bedroom and bathroom are shared so the heat goes in there with no issues.

Additional details/goals:
1. The windows are terrible. You can clearly hear conversations happening on the street outside the house.
2. The west facing window is three windows spanning approx. 8ft. There is an additional window facing north that is standard size.
3. The longest bedroom wall is north facing.
4. Goal is to buy the most reliable/efficient unit that will fit the opening the current unit is taking because the walls are knotty pine paneling and I have no way to patch the walls.

Does anyone have quality or installation concerns about the Home Depot model here: https://www.homedepot.com/p/William...Cabinet-Mounted-Thermostat-2509622A/100045691

Or do you have any other suggestions for ordering online a wall heater that will take approx. the same wall space? A shorter heater will leave holes with no paneling - so I need the full length heater.

THANKS!
Diana
 

Dana

In the trades
Messages
7,889
Reaction score
509
Points
113
Location
01609
Thanks Dana!

This is a college house that is about 1 block from campus in Stillwater, OK (Oklahoma State Univ.) where our son goes to school.
It does get cold there on a regular basis so a heat pump doesn't suffice. We actually have a mini-split for the AC in that room that has a heat pump heater. It works great till the temperatures drop too low (say upper 30s/40 degrees) then for the remainder of the winter it just cannot keep the room warm.

The other thing that the wall heater does is heat an adjacent bathroom. There is no vent into the bathroom but the wall between the bedroom and bathroom are shared so the heat goes in there with no issues.

Additional details/goals:
1. The windows are terrible. You can clearly hear conversations happening on the street outside the house.
2. The west facing window is three windows spanning approx. 8ft. There is an additional window facing north that is standard size.
3. The longest bedroom wall is north facing.
4. Goal is to buy the most reliable/efficient unit that will fit the opening the current unit is taking because the walls are knotty pine paneling and I have no way to patch the walls.

Does anyone have quality or installation concerns about the Home Depot model here:

Or do you have any other suggestions for ordering online a wall heater that will take approx. the same wall space? A shorter heater will leave holes with no paneling - so I need the full length heater.

THANKS!
Diana


I know people living in central Vermont heating an entire house with just three cold climate mini-spits in a location that regularly hits double-digits below zero. A heat pump definitely DOES suffice- it just has to be specified correctly for the heating load, not just air conditioning. The 99% outside design temperature for Stillwater OK is +36F, it doesn't need cold climate version for that, but it does have to be sized correctly to the load, and leave it on during cold weather- don't use overnight/away set-backs the way you might with an oversized gas-burner.

If it isn't crapping out until it's ~40F or cooler outside it means your existing mini-split (got a model number?) is only slightly undersized for the current heat load. A lower-end 3/4 ton mini-split might only have 9000 BTU/hr of heating capacity , but that SHOULD be able to keep up with a reasonably tight 600 square foot apartment over a garage. The fact that it isn't keeping up at those temps is a fairly strong indication that there's a lot of low-hanging fruit on the building performance end.

Air sealing would be the cheapest building upgrade, but beyond that...

An uninsulated wood floor over an open-joist garage loses about 0.4 BTU/hr per square foot per degree-F. So assuming the garage stays at 40F with the door closed that's a 30F difference a 600' floor would be losing 30F x 0.4 x 600'= 7000 BTU/hr. Stuffing even some cheap contractor-roll R11s tight to the subfloor would reduce that to 0.1 BTU/hr per square foot per degree-F, or 1800 BTU/hr, better than 5000 BTU/hr reduction in heat loss. That could be as much as half the heat loss of the apartment in it's current leaky-window condition.

If the garage ceiling is open the subfloor can be air sealed with caulk or housewrap tape, then insulated with R13-R20 batts snug to the floor, taking an even bigger chunk off the heat load. (R19 would be IRC 2015 code-minimum for floors in US climate zone 3) But if it's closed up blowing it full of cellulose would still reduce air leakage and warm up the floor by quite a bit. Assuming 500 square feet and 2x10 joists that would take about 400-500lbs of cellulose, for about 50 cents/lb, and would deliver R35-ish performance. Fiberglass of similar volume might be cheaper. (Box stores in my area usually throw in a free day of rental blower if you spend more than $100 on the insulation.)

If the windows are leaky but functional single pane windows are single-panes, spending some money on l0w-E storm windows and some air sealing & insulation measures would be a good investment in comfort & efficiency making it quieter and more air tight. (It's fine to put them over leaky clear-glass double-panes too.) Not counting the air leakage, single pane window loses about 1 BTU/hr for every square foot of area per degree of temperature difference. At a 35F temperature difference it's 35 BTU/hr per square foot. Four windows at 10 square feet each is 40 square feet x 35 BTU/ft-hr for about 1400 BTU/hr. Low-E storm windows would cut that down to ~400-500 BTU/hr (a 900-1000 BTU/hr cut in heat load), and makes the place more comfortable at any temperature. Larson's low-E storms sold through box stores are good enough, but if you're keeping the place long term it's worth up-grading to the next higher quality in their lineup (which is usually a special order when going through a box store.) The better-grade Larson storms are more air tight, and have better latching hardware, etc.

Even though the low-E coating is an upcharge from clear glass, it actually pays back quicker than clear glass despite the higher upfront cost. A low-E storm window over a wood-sashed single pane is very comparable to (and sometimes beats) the performance of a code-minimum replacement window that's more expensive up front and harder to install. They also deliver a pretty big cut in air conditioning load, which is pretty high for west-facing windows that aren't easily shaded by overhangs, etc. In my area 32" x 55" low-E storm windows for double-hungs run ~$80/each at box stores, ~ $90-100 for better-tighter versions.

Cutting the load by 900 BTU/hr is probably something like 10% of the total heat load currently, and would be an even bigger fraction after some air-sealing & insulation upgrades have already cut the heat load down to size.

Filling in the finish wall where the old one stood with an aesthetic complementary wall type shouldn't be too tough, but could take some creativity. Trying to color & grain match knotty pine would not be easy, but a contrasting type of wall in a floor to ceiling strip doesn't have to look weird.

Don't know anything about the reputation of the Williams wall furnaces. The one in the link is a millivolt thermostat no-electricity required model with a remarkably low AFUE of 71%, and 19,200 BTU/hr of output (about the same capacity as as a no-frills 1.25 ton mini-split). It would still be able to heat the place during a power outage, but last time I looked Stillwater OK was still in a first-world country, with first-world type grid reliability, so that's not an essential feature. :)
 

gvladybug

New Member
Messages
24
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Grapevine, Texas
Dana -- Thank you so much! I will review your suggestions and see what will work best for the situation! We plan on keeping the place about another year maybe year and a half. Just enough time to get the last kid off and on his own! It's not worth the hassles of renting if we only have one place and remotely manage it from 4 hours away. So no major investment is on the radar unless required (like the new AC Unit last year).

thank you again!
 

Dana

In the trades
Messages
7,889
Reaction score
509
Points
113
Location
01609
Try running loadcalc.net on that space as-is, and with better insulation. The insulation & air sealing will usually be the biggest bang per buck, and could be cheaper & easier than a wall furnace swap.

Low-E storms are a "nice to have" comfort improvement, but simply weatherstripping and tightening up the windows would be dirt cheap. From a resale point of view I doubt any of the above is going to move the needle even a little bit.

For the record, what mini-split model is that?
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks